Jordan Levine with Bruce Norris Part 2


Jordan Levine is VP and Chief Economist for the California Association of Realtors where he is responsible for the housing market and economic trends and analysis, policy analysis, and data work in a variety of contexts.

Additionally, He manages an EB-5 Immigrant Investor Visa practice, helping to establish regional centers with I-924 economic impact reports across California and the U.S. region, and has provided I-526 impact and job creation analyses for many more individual projects across the nation. Past projects have included call centers, residential real estate developments, mixed-use developments, hotels, retail businesses, high-tech manufacturing, biotechnology, ambulatory health care facilities, assisted living facilities, agricultural enterprises, movie studios, and grocery stores, among others. Well versed in critical issues related to USCIS approval of I-526 and I-924 EB5 applications like construction jobs, tenant occupancy, and establishing a causal nexus.

One critical characteristic that sets Jordan apart from other number crunchers is his ability to communicate complex economic concepts and ideas in a clear and effective style. He has spoken to a variety of groups, ranging in size from small groups of 5-10 to over 800, including industry groups like the California Bankers Association (CBA) and the California State Municipal Finance Officers (CSMFO), elected officials such as the California State Controller’s Office, various local government bodies like County Boards of Supervisors. In addition, he regularly contributes to radio and newspaper articles.

Jordan has a bachelor’s degree in economics from the University of California, Santa Barbara and a master’s degree with Merit in International Economics from the University of Sussex.  Prior to joining C.A.R., Jordan worked in consulting as an economist and director of economic research where he oversaw all research and economic analysis on California’s economy and housing market and regularly spoke to trade groups, public officials, businesses, and the media.

See below for the full video and resources.


Episode Highlights:

  • Unemployment
  • Foreclosure
  • Student Loan Forgiveness
  • Inflation
  • Prop 19

Episode Notes:


Narrator  This is The Norris Group’s real estate investor radio show the award-winning show dedicated to thought leaders shaping the real estate industry and local experts revealing their insider tips to succeed in an ever-changing real estate market hosted by author, investor, and hard money lender, Bruce Norris.

Bruce Norris  Hi, thank you for joining us, my name is Bruce Norris and once again, we are joined by Jordan Levine. Jordan, welcome back.

Jordan Levine  Hey, thanks so much for having me back. You know, I think that it’s, it’s absolutely a valid point. And that’s, you know, I’m definitely in that kind of cautiously optimistic camp, I think things will continue to get better. But I think that we’ve got a lot of healing left to do. And I think that in in a lot of ways, we, we have kind of kicked the can down the road, I’m really grappling with some of the most challenging issues left to be dealt with, even as the public health thing starts to abate, and we get, you know, widespread distribution of the vaccines, and we can kind of have more normal economic activity out there. We’ve got, you know, again, a long road to hoe on that. And I think, you know, when you look at the continuing claims here in California alone, you know, you’re talking about 2.62 point 7 million people once you throw in all the pandemic claims, and the regular extended unemployment insurance, the regular unemployment insurance, and yeah, it’s not the six or 7 million that we had back at the peak. But, you know, we’re still talking about 6, 7, 8 times more than the kind of previous concurrent maximum number of folks who were on the government payroll, at any one point in time, we’ve still got a lot of missed, you know, folks are in forbearance, or you can’t be evicted right now. And, and I think we’ve learned a lot of lessons from last time, right? It looks like there’s going to be payment plans, we’re not just going to do like big, you know, 12 month balloon payments, at the end of this, that’s gonna, you know, get people out of their home, but they’re still on the hook for that money, right. And so even as you maybe get your job back, your income starts growing part of, you know, your economic recovery is going to be dedicated towards digging yourself out of that, that hole that you’ve been in, right, because that doesn’t just get excused or go away. And that’s gonna limit even as things get better, we’re not just going to be able to all of a sudden go out and buy that boat that we want and do all that kind of stuff. And so I think that you know, we’ve got, we’ve got a long, long, long way to go. And still a lot, a lot of pain out there. We talked about the K shaped recovery, right, some, some of us spreadsheet, nerds can still do our jobs on the computer. But other folks have had, you know, real significant impacts out there that they’re going to take a long time to, to recover from.

Bruce Norris  You know, it’s been, it’s been a little bit different experience living in Florida, because of I’ll go visit California, and you’ll have, they’ll just be different things locked down, I have somebody that owns a karate dojo that hasn’t been open has been closed for, you know, several times.

Jordan Levine  Yeah.

Bruce Norris  And he’s pretty established. But you know, that takes its toll. It’s next to a restaurant that’s closed. And it’s, you know, on and on next to a theater that’s closed. And I, I get a feeling in my, just my gut that this unemployment number is somehow calculating things that are not calculating those people, because they’re, I’m not sure what are they, they were self-employed. So, they’re not looking for a job. Does that mean they don’t get counted? That type of thing.

Jordan Levine  Yeah, definitely. I think there’s statistical anomalies there. And I think that’s why it’s important to triangulate and never hang your hat on one indicator. And I think when you look at the unemployment rate, which continued to go down if you look at the California number have dropped because people have gotten discouraged, right. And so, you can always be, it’s easy to be fooled by a falling unemployment rate because it can go down for good reasons, or it can go down for bad reasons. And, and I think that that is also you know, taken together with just how many people are actually on the government payroll, and you still have folks out there who are trying to find work and can’t, it speaks to just, you know, how, how much, you know, how, how far the road ahead is, and it’s still fraught, and I think, you know, it’s probably going to get, get a little worse before it starts to get better, you know, until that the public health thing is really clearly in the rearview mirror.

Bruce Norris  Yeah, there’s a fear that, you know, some high percentage of restaurants, for instance, are just not going to reopen. They’ll just go try to work at another restaurant, that type of thing. I have a great friend who’s been in the travel business, he’s a sole proprietor, works alone, and he books cruises, of all things.

Jordan Levine  Yeah.

Bruce Norris  So, you know, every cruise he wrote for 2020 got canceled.

Jordan Levine  Right.

Bruce Norris  Every cruise that he booked for 2021 has been downsized. It’s no longer three weeks. It’s a week. Yeah. And that’s been a catastrophe for for him. So anybody in some of those isolated industries, it’s really been really challenging, and I’m not sure is reflected in the stability of that unemployment number.

Jordan Levine  Yeah, I think, you know, and I think we’ll see that eventually trickled through to to housing, we’re not seeing people, you know, right now. And luckily, we have such a strong demand environment that you’re not seeing a lot of people have to walk away, there’s Home Equity, and I think the fundamentals are different than the last time, but I think there’s, you know, going to be folks who are unable to, to hang on, and it’s really, you know, just a testament to how severe this crisis really was that even as, you know, an environment where prices are going up, and people want, you know, are fighting over few homes and things like that, that you’re, you know, you’re gonna have folks who aren’t gonna make it.

Bruce Norris  Foreclosure levels, to me, are a big deal. Because what I when I look at charts, you know, trying to figure this stuff out, as an investor, say, what’s the, what’s the domino, what’s the first chart that goes and all these other go? And what’s really interesting is like, in 1980, for instance, at 80, 81, 82, we had 17 and a half percent interest rate, at least one point in there, because I refi my house at that.

Jordan Levine  Yeah.

Bruce Norris  So, I become an investor, we had about 10 and a half percent unemployment. You give those two figures out and then say, ‘Okay, well, what was the price damage to the medium price of real estate?’ And it was nothing.

Jordan Levine  Right.

Bruce Norris  Now, that’s really weird. And I mean, so, I’m trying to figure that out. How does that work? And I took a look at the ratio of foreclosures in the marketplace, and it was 25%, foreclosures, 75% regular sales in a way that lends, it lends credibility to me because I thought, okay, if you’re an appraiser, you could ignore that one sale, because that’s not the market.

Jordan Levine  Right.

Bruce Norris  In 1990, it became 40% of the market. In 2008, it was 80% of the market, it was the market.

Jordan Levine  Yep.

Bruce Norris  So, that’s kind of my question is, do you see? Do you see the lenders kind of anxious to foreclose? Or do you think they’re gonna go, Ah, we just recently learned a lesson and we are not going to pull the plug hard and fast on that?

Jordan Levine  Yeah, I don’t see the banks in a rush to do that. And I think, you know, it’s interesting, if you look at the core logic numbers, they do a good job of tracking delinquencies, and especially all these COVID-related forbearances. And I think, and you know, to borrow a phrase from my, my daughter’s favorite song, the bones were good coming into this one, a little bit more so than, than last time, we didn’t have all the five one option arms, I think, you know, go back to 2005, six, half the market, half the mortgages were originating, were, were adjustable-rate, where we had people even like picking their own payment, they don’t, they weren’t looking at amortization tables and realizing like, oh, shoot, this mortgage is going to go up by two grand a month here starting in, you know, that just wasn’t a thing. This time around, we didn’t have the liquidation of home equity. And you know, the, the cash-out refi numbers that like that, once you strip away just like second consolidations, right, but true, cashing out, was much more modest, even though the underlying values of these homes are much higher today than they were even at the height of the last bubble that we’re talking about a fraction of the, of the cashing out, so you didn’t have this whole kind of my house is, my bank account, let’s all go to Europe kind of thing, this time around and, and so, I think that that is is critically important. And you see that. So, in the in, those CoreLogic numbers that I, that I mentioned, when she looks at the COVID forbearance, I think she said, someone at a conference that we had said two out of five COVID forbearances had already exited. Part of that was because they were performing I think like 7 out of 10 of those were re-performing again, because people got their jobs back or whatever, but about 15% were people who paid off the mortgage in full. And that is something they didn’t have the option to do last time, right? Where Lehman Brothers crashed. We had all these, you know, fundamental imbalances with the ninja loans with the option arms and all that stuff. And so, all it took was an economic nudge to really get that snowball rolling. This is an unprecedented shock. But again, it’s one that’s happening to an economy where we had really stringent underwriting right? Where you have to put skin in the game. These are all people who got fixed-rate mortgages at seven scores and higher and kept their home equity in right. And so, even if you do lose your job, you don’t throw the keys to the bank on a home that you have equity in where there’s a line of buyers going around the block, you want to take that off your hand, and so, let’s not say that everyone’s gonna hold on, but I think way more people are going to be able to hold on than before.

Bruce Norris  Yeah, what you said is really important, because if that, if that foreclosure even occurs, it probably gets bought by a cash buyer.

Jordan Levine  Right.

Bruce Norris  Or now by the state of California. So, the odds of that becoming inventory in the MLS that damages the comps for normal sales is not going to be a big percentage, I don’t think for sure.

Jordan Levine  Yeah. And I think you know, the share of foreclosures determines the discount of foreclosures, right. Because if you’re, if you’re one random foreclosure in a sea of you know, the consumer doesn’t care to the consumer. It’s a house. They want the house and So unless you have it totally dominating the market, the price impacts are going to be minimal.

Bruce Norris  Yes, that’s, that’s right. What, what’s, what was scary about 2008 and nine it’s big in the rehab in the resale business. The appraisals wouldn’t come in on a ridiculous resale. So, we like a 360 house we bought for 64 grand.

Jordan Levine  Yeah.

Bruce Norris  Fixed it with, fixed it with 20 Grand, had it for sale for 125. Had like 20 offers in two days and appraised for 95.

Jordan Levine  Yeah.

Bruce Norris  Because the only comps were vacant houses that were REO’s.

Jordan Levine  Exactly.

Bruce Norris  And you’re just going wow, it’s, it’s such a dominant player. But I don’t see that either. There’s a lot of people waiting for foreclosures. And I know that there are even Wall Street firms that are setting up funds to buy and lease back to the the owners interest.

Jordan Levine  Yeah, yeah.

Bruce Norris  Okay. If you’re doing research, what charts would lead you to believe that a particular state was in for some serious economic growth?

Jordan Levine  I’d look at the in-migration, you know, every cat- you know, they can people can laugh all the way to the bank at California’s inability to get its, its housing situation sorted out, because I think you, you look at people who move and actually I think it’s Ellie Mae has a really good millennial, tracker, right? So, they can see where the millennial mortgages are being originated. And I think that’s monthly, and it’s free, and you can just go online and check it out. But I think, in, you know, that subset in particular of out-migrants, right, those young skilled college graduates who have the skills, all the employers want, and all that stuff, you see where, where, where those, those guys are going, and those girls, that’s where the, you know, those are the folks that the companies want. And so, that’s where, you know, that’s where they’re gonna follow, I think that they, in some ways, the tail wags the dog on that front, right, they, they go where the workers are.

Bruce Norris  Some talk with the new Biden administration, to do some discounting of college debt. Debt forgiveness of 10 grand to 50 grand, what’s the impact, you think, for housing on that one?

Jordan Levine  I think it will definitely help. It’s a shame, it wasn’t around when I was buying a house. You know, I, I think that student, you know, the correlations between student loan debt and, and homeownership have been documented, not just by, you know, trade groups, but, but also in the academic literature that, you know, the the, that detracts from your ability to spend money elsewhere, one of those areas, you know, elsewhere is is ownership, ownership housing. And so, I think that you know, the ability to get that leg on, on the property ladder has been impeded significantly, through a whole host of things. And so, you know, anything that helps people get that first home is we know, that’s what unlocks, you know, wealth accumulation and, and things like that, I think that there’s, you know if you want to help housing out, and that’s the goal, I think there’s, you know, ways to do that more directly by like building more housing and giving people help to actually buy housing, but, but I think that there are linkages there between college debt and housing.

Joey Romero  Jordan. Go ahead.

Bruce Norris  Go ahead. Go ahead.  One of the biggest, biggest concerns that investors are having with us is the 1031 exchange. Do you, do you have any thoughts on if that really could go away or parts of it?

Jordan Levine  You know, that’s not been flagged for me as a, as an area that we’re, you know, more concerned about, I think that you know, we’ve been really focused on the GSE’s up till this point, and I think that you know, we’re, we’re probably, you know, that we’ll probably dial back as a source of concern going forward. But I think that you know, one of the things that we kind of joked about it before, but where I think we get more bang for the buck is on, you know, assumable loans because I think that, you know, there’s gonna be a really nasty byproduct of everybody having 2.6% mortgages one day, when when rates go, go up. And so, I think that you know, 1031 exchange is a big thing, but I, you know, I don’t think that’s a big policy emergency or a big target. I don’t see that as having a huge target on its back relative to some of the other housing policy things that are in the mix. I could be wrong on that. But that’s my read.

Joey Romero  So, if that’s not a big target, what, what’s the biggest target that you guys have?

Jordan Levine  

So, I, you know, I think we’re trying to be proactive on the policy front, I think that we’re trying to look at ways that we can be, you know, offer up solutions, right and be in the affirmative. And so, I, you know, looking at commercial conversions, I think is a big opportunity. I think, you know, assumable loans, I think you know, low rates are going to be like the Prop 13 of the future right? Where, why am I going to ever leave this house even if I hate walking up and down these stairs. I got a 2.6% mortgage right, and I’m not going anywhere, I always joke ’cause my dad was one of those guys like Bruce who had that 13% mortgage back in the 80s. And he was always like bragging about it because his buddies had like, you know, 16% mortgage. So, yeah, I think, I think you know, the commercial conversions, I think the assumable loans, all that stuff, I think GFC and make sure there’s still you know, support for homeownership in terms of mortgage finance is critically important. I think, finding a mechanism for ADU finance that’s more, you know, broadly available and workable, right, because I think that’s a huge key to unlocking wealth and housing supply and solving, you know, a bunch of our problems in one, in one shot, but there’s no like financing mechanism, right? So, unless you want to get some kind of a non-traditional construction loan, or you got another home that you already own with home equity that you can access or something like that, you know, that’s a piece of the puzzle that we could really light up, right? It’s a good investment. And the banks would like it, right? We just need to like formalize a kind of mechanism for that stuff. So, I think there are all kinds of ways that we can get creative about like not being against stuff and be for stuff that actually is like a win-win for consumers, for income for wealth accumulation, realtors, everybody.

Joey Romero  Comps is been the issue there, right?

Bruce Norris  It’s been tossed about, about a $15,000 house buying credit. So, that’s, that’s an interesting thing. But I’ve got a run this way because I’ve talked about this a few times.

Joey Romero   True.

Bruce Norris  Rather than a $15,000 credit. And why not have it nothing down loan program that has its own set of rules, here’s the set of rules, you’d have to qualify like a veteran like a VA loan, so they have VA loans very successful, they have to have some cash flow in place, and they have to have some maybe some equity somewhere, but they have a very successful loan program without a down payment. The loan program would be completely assumable like a subject to the loan. In other words, you don’t have to qualify you have to make a current if there’s a default. And just for this loan program, you have one foreclosure law, not 50. And the foreclosure lies on the, on the anniversary of six months of non-payment. The opening bid is the late payment, not having anything to do with the principal, you just sell the late payments to somebody give it a priority to the owner occupant. What I think that would do is I think it would change homeownership through the roof. But I also think it would also do its share of reaching across the aisle to the have nots. And say you get to own a home man, you get to have a mortgage rate of two and a half percent you’re gonna save probably 500 bucks a month and own something. I remember the day I first owned a house, it was emotional. I was like 22 years old. And it was, I remember mowing my lawn thinking oh, my God, I’ve arrived. I’m a man. It’s so weird. I really felt like that I didn’t have a dime worth of equity. My windows didn’t open. But my name was on a grant deed and it changed my entire life. I think if we want to reach across the aisle and say you know what, this is all you have to do make a payment on a two and a half percent mortgage rate

Jordan Levine  Yeah.

Bruce Norris  I say 15 grand a house.

Jordan Levine  Yeah.

Bruce Norris  And whatever default you’d have, let’s be, let’s be outrageous and say you have 20% defaults which would never happen. You do the foreclosure process. Like I just said, you’ll have no REOs, you just just go to somebody else.

Jordan Levine  Well, you know I’m a big fan of homeownership that’s why you know I was kind of glad to hear that you said I lit up when I was talking real estate I believe in this stuff you know that’s why I’m here today I, you know my dad didn’t even graduate high school he was from San Diego or he’s from New Jersey and then moved to San Diego and didn’t make it through high school he worked with the parts department but he you know bought his own home in the late 70s and, and hung on to it through thick and thin and all that stuff and you know that’s just, that is the real American dream, you know, that’s why I was able to, he didn’t have fancy you know, economist friends or his buddies were like professors at USD or something like that you know, he just had a, own his own home it provided the, the wealth accumulation the stability or I just went to school and focused on getting good grades and can like be here you know nerding out on, on housing stuff today. And that is what we want more folks to, to be able to do you know, I think that’s the one if you go look at the feds numbers on consumer finances right, that’s the one tried and true way that people accumulate wealth if you look at the wealth distribution, right, it’s all owned by people who own their own home so it’s not a secret. That’s how guys like my dad did it.

Bruce Norris  Yeah. And share that with people that have you know, don’t have the downpayment. But the willingness to make the payment, I think it’d be a really, really smart move. Because that. yeah, then what happened is you do end up you know, you have a mortgage that starts to gradually pay down, you get a little bit of equity, you become entrepreneurial, get a credit line, you go get another house, or you go start a business, and all of a sudden, you’re very independently capable of taking care of your family.

Jordan Levine  Yeah.

Bruce Norris  That’s a. That was a big deal, you know. Bigger picture stuff, I wanted to just cover for, what we got maybe nine more minutes. A lot of, a lot of things floating around. So, what are we, I don’t know how much the debt grew this year, 3 trillion or so give or take, give or take a trillion next year, maybe what three to four?

Jordan Levine  Probably.

Bruce Norris One point. One point, you know, we hear the inflation word. What point do you think that’s, that’s a concern?

Jordan Levine  Yeah, I mean, presume, you know, if you go back to econ 101, at UC Santa Barbara, that I took way back, and when, you know, they, that would tell you that eventually, the bond market is going to come for its pound of flesh, right for for all these evil ways that we’ve been, that we’ve been doing. But, you know, I think that the, the, there’s a kind of, there’s a global financial component to the bond market as well. And I think that you know, we always joke that as, as you know, many warts as we have, we’re still kind of like the cleanest dirty shirt in the hamper kind of thing, we still got a few more days left in us compared to the rest of the global financial system. And I think that until, you know, there’s fundamental changes to the, you know, we’re still the backstop, we’re still the global reserve currency, the contracts are written in, in dollars and all that stuff and so. And still, we start buying oil and you won, or, or, you know, Brazilian peso or something that, you know, I think that there were still a safe haven, right, betting on the US government to still be in business. You know, that’s what fuels a lot of this bond buying from the rest of the world, right? They’re not trying to get big returns on a 10 year Treasury, they’re trying to protect against their own currency tanking. And so, I think that that is still very much a phenomenon. That’s why we see low rates, even when we’re running up the credit card. And so, I think that we do have to get our house in order. I’m not as worried about putting stuff on the credit card right now, when we’re at 10 or 15% unemployment, that’s when you should be using the credit card. What, what I, you know, worried about is that we were weren’t getting our house in order before then and probably won’t do it once we’re back to doing well, economically. But I think that, you know, take big, big changes for us to see, you know, and there’s been such a decoupling between the labor markets and, you know, inflation as well, right. You just don’t see a lot of wage upward wage pressure driving inflation. So, I’d be surprised if we saw near term inflation, that’s anything to worry about.

Joey Romero  Bruce can ask one last question?

Bruce Norris  Go ahead.

Joey Romero  So, so, what this election, what the, I got? I got a question about the election. Okay, so, not, not, not big overall. But I want to ask a question on, was this election a win? Or a loss for California real estate? And then my second part of the question is, what’s, what’s up? Can you talk about Prop 19, and how that’s gonna affect California real estate?

Jordan Levine  Yeah, definitely. I mean, my, our view on the elections are that they don’t have a big effect on the day to day operation of housing, if you go back and build like a statistical model and try and do econometrics on this. And, you know, once you control for what’s happening with jobs and interest rates, and people’s incomes and things like that, you just don’t get a lot of significance. We did it six ways from Sunday, whether it was incumbent or not, you know, party affiliation, you know, first to, first timers going up for it. I mean, there’s just no way that, you know, it’s driven by those kind of dinner table issues, right? Did we have babies? Did we get divorced, all those life change things, and then the kind of macro environment, I think, you know, you could argue for things like the impacts on GSE, but it’s really just a policy thing. And so, I think that very much dominate, you know, the housing market here is more dominated by the supply and demand stuff that set up the household level. Prop 19 I’m optimistic because we’ve taken away some of the penalty that long term homeowners had for potentially wanting to downsize you know, you got guys like my father in law who live in a two-story house with a pool that was good for, you know, somebody who had three teenage kids living in the house, but doesn’t work anymore. But, you know, he doesn’t want to give up or, you know, face that huge tax of, of getting increased property taxes, but the, you know, the thing that has me more optimistic is not just to get folks like that motivated to move but hopefully what it does that motivates builders to build some of the product that guys like my father in law, made me want to go out there and buy because I think that’s the flip side of the coin, right, is that you take away the penalty and that’s one thing, but I still got to have a house that I actually want to move to. And so hopefully that catalyzes some new production. One of my favorite economists over at USC, Richard Green says California never builds affordable housing. You know, they build new housing. And so, you know, if we build new housing and let those long term homeowners move into that, the housing that is affordable as the old housing and there’s lots of families out there who would, you know, kill the to get into those 1970, 80, 90s built homes, that those people would be opening up? So.

Joey Romero  You talked to. You talked about earlier, you put an ADU in the back and then at the front?

Jordan Levine  That’s right. Yeah, exactly. We get the financing on for that. That’s the double whammy. So.

Bruce Norris  I want to, I want to wrap up talking about we talked about inflation. Is there anything that you look at and say, well, that’s deflationary. And that’s, that’s an issue.

Jordan Levine  I think this, you know, I think that’s high unemployment. I think the Fed has done a good job through this crisis, honestly, and I think backstopping the economy, because I think that, you know, the high unemployment, the falling economy, the closure of all these businesses, that’s the biggest deflationary thing, you got a lot of desperate people out there, you know, you start to see a lot of downward pressure on that wage side of the equation. And so, you know, I think that the sooner. That’s why, again, I’m not as worried about the budget stuff right now, right? Because I think the more we can help buttress demand over the short run, and then you kind of give it some, some foundation to grow from, and then we can worry about paying down the credit card once things, you know, get, get better. But I think in terms of housing demand, in particular, you know, and I think housing is also just that, that safe haven in the same way that a US government bond is, such to the extent that you’re still worried about unemployment in the stock market and all that stuff. I think that the housing price in particular should be pretty stable.

Bruce Norris  Do you, looking out, going at, take a look at AI or robotics, demographics, do you view those as dangerously deflationary or quite manageable for the United States?

Jordan Levine  Over the long term, I think that we really got to do some soul searching in terms of the structure of our economy, right, and look at ways that we could talk about sharing the gains from some of that stuff, right. And, and I don’t know what the right answer is, but I mean, there’s, you know, it’s not just the jobs and there’s, you know, a lot of good books about this out there. But you know, I think that it’s there’s a lot of jobs that can be automated contract law lawyers, right. It’s not just hammer and nail stuff. And so, I think that it will have profound impacts that we need to plan for, over the long run just those you know, those are kind of 10 plus year issues, but very much I think ones that we should be thinking about right now.

Bruce Norris  Okay. Oh, Jordan, I’ve had a ball. I knew I would.

Jordan Levine  It was fun.

Bruce Norris  That was, that was really nice to batted around with you, and you can check out CARs website And it’s got tons of information, not only up to date but also historical if you want to create a chart and get nerdy.

Jordan Levine  That’s right. So.

Bruce Norris  Okay.

Jordan Levine  Thanks again.

Bruce Norris  All right, Jordan, enjoyed it very much.

Jordan Levine  We’ll see you on the next one.

Bruce Norris  Okay.

Narrator  For more information on hard money, loans, and upcoming events with The Norris Group, check out For information on passive investing with trust deeds, visit  The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669.  For more information on hard money lending, go and click the Hard Money tab.




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