Jordan Levine is VP and Chief Economist for the California Association of Realtors where he is responsible for the housing market and economic trends and analysis, policy analysis, and data work in a variety of contexts.
Additionally, He manages an EB-5 Immigrant Investor Visa practice, helping to establish regional centers with I-924 economic impact reports across California and the U.S. region, and has provided I-526 impact and job creation analyses for many more individual projects across the nation. Past projects have included call centers, residential real estate developments, mixed-use developments, hotels, retail businesses, high-tech manufacturing, biotechnology, ambulatory health care facilities, assisted living facilities, agricultural enterprises, movie studios, and grocery stores, among others. Well versed in critical issues related to USCIS approval of I-526 and I-924 EB5 applications like construction jobs, tenant occupancy, and establishing a causal nexus.
One critical characteristic that sets Jordan apart from other number crunchers is his ability to communicate complex economic concepts and ideas in a clear and effective style. He has spoken to a variety of groups, ranging in size from small groups of 5-10 to over 800, including industry groups like the California Bankers Association (CBA) and the California State Municipal Finance Officers (CSMFO), elected officials such as the California State Controller’s Office, various local government bodies like County Boards of Supervisors. In addition, he regularly contributes to radio and newspaper articles.
Jordan has a bachelor’s degree in economics from the University of California, Santa Barbara and a master’s degree with Merit in International Economics from the University of Sussex. Prior to joining C.A.R., Jordan worked in consulting as an economist and director of economic research where he oversaw all research and economic analysis on California’s economy and housing market and regularly spoke to trade groups, public officials, businesses, and the media.
- Increased Demand in Housing
- Labor and Unemployment
Narrator This is The Norris Group’s real estate investor radio show the award-winning show dedicated to thought leaders shaping the real estate industry and local experts revealing their insider tips to succeed in an ever-changing real estate market hosted by author, investor, and hard money lender, Bruce Norris.
Bruce Norris Thank you for joining us my name is Bruce Norris. And today our special guest is Jordan Levine. Jordan is vice president, Chief Economist for the California Association of Realtors, where he’s responsible for the housing market and economic trends and analysis, policy analysis, and data work in a variety of contents and he’s as much of a nerd about stats as I am. So, I’m excited to get to speak to him. He’s done many other things with data and economics and so forth, spoken in front of large audiences, and I just watched him last night I’d mentioned to him before we went on the air, it’s just a pleasure watching how much fun he had speaking in front of an audience. So, Jordan, really glad you’re here with us today.
Jordan Levine Thank you so much for having me back.
Bruce Norris You know what’s interesting, I’m going to go back to the end of 2019, because I’m going to kind of take that year. And then I’d like your explanation about something. So, at the beginning of 2020, and that was when I heard you speak by the way when I watched it, we enjoyed record low unemployment, we had low-interest rates, we had reasonable inventory levels. We had historically high affordability, virtually no competition from the lender’s own properties. Despite that all being in place, real estate prices rose very modestly that year. And sales were about the same as they’ve been for the last 10. So, if you were speaking in front of that audience in January 2020, how do you, how did you explain that modest year for real estate? Because it seemed like it should have done much better.
Jordan Levine Yeah, definitely. And I think that you know, what, what we saw was that there was, you know, still, even as we saw some new listings come online, relative to where we were now, you know, looking back at the beginning of 2021, it was still pretty tight from a month of supply standpoint, and we’ve had several years now of fairly low rates, and that has really put pressure on that available housing stock. So, we didn’t see enough homes turning over, we had lots of buyers who, who wanted to get into those homes. But and you know, I think what we’ve seen as well is that are kind of 30 years, chronic, under building trend that we’ve done for so long has, you know, starts to catch up with you when you’re as late in the cycle, as we were even in 2019, right? The economy had really hit bottom back in 2010, arguably 11, 12, depending on which indicator you want to point at. But we’ve had, you know, not as low rates as we see today. But we’ve had fairly low rates persist throughout that, that time and it really has just put a strain on again, the amount of homes actually available out there. And so, that’s, that’s where I think the disconnect is between all those positive kind of nerdy macroeconomic indicators and the actual home sales.
Bruce Norris What’s interesting about that is what’s happened now. So, during 2020 now, you know, emotionally if you think okay, how do you feel about 2021 versus 2020? It’s like a different world.
Jordan Levine Right?
Bruce Norris So, you can’t, you can’t be looking out at 2021 going on. It feels, feel so good about all this stuff. So, now we have we face lockdowns, high unemployment, uncertainty, as, honestly as high as I have ever felt as an adult, right, despite that, California sales in 2020 managed to go up over 20% at the same time inventory went down by 45%. So, prices instead of declining because of all the uncertainty and all this other nonsense went up. 17% So, it’s a pretty it’s a head-scratcher to me. Why, why 2020 and not 2019?
Jordan Levine Right. Yeah, and I think that it’s, it’s interesting because we were optimistic at the end of 2019 rates were actually coming back down a bit, they had gotten up close to 4% or a little higher there. And we’re on their way back down towards the end of 2019. We are forecasting that 2020 was going to be a good year prior to the pandemic because we saw that you know, all-time low unemployment, low rates and all that good stuff 2020 did end up being a great year for home sales mathematically but for completely different reasons. And I think it wasn’t those low cyclical, you know, things like low unemployment low rates that drove it, I think this crisis has been unique because it created some kind of structural component to the housing demand equation as well where you know, we’re our homes are more important to us now than ever before. We’re, you know, you don’t just go back there at six, seven o’clock at night, grab a bite to eat and then lay your head on the pillow for you head out the next day you do you know you need so much more from your home. It’s where you live and play and where you’re held hostage and all that stuff for months on end. And so, you need more space that, that open plan condo doesn’t work as well in the downtown when you and your spouse are both having like dueling zoom meetings, right? And so, I think that there’s been some some fundamental changes to our relationship with housing that’s just kind of compounded all that that macro stuff where unemployment is coming down and rates are low. But I do think there’s been that kind of fundamental shift.
Bruce Norris What was pretty cool to me is that you ended up getting 20% more sales out of 45%, less inventory. So, it kind of dispelled that where there wasn’t enough houses, because in a way the inventory levels if they were load, compared to to demand, but to have price pressure like you did this year.
Jordan Levine Yeah.
Bruce Norris But this is my take on, I’m just going to run this by it because I had to think about this, you know, as I’m presenting in front of people going like, What the heck’s going on? I kind of think there were two urgencies that met. So, I know the realtors that had listings in March, half of them disappeared.
Jordan Levine Yeah.
Bruce Norris People just pulled them. I don’t want anybody looking at the house. And oh, by the way, I just refi to two and a half. So, I’m staying.
Jordan Levine Yep.
Bruce Norris So, maybe that home not coming back. You had the other group saying I gotta get out at wherever I am.
Jordan Levine Right.
Bruce Norris And so, all of a sudden, they became an urgency shopper wasn’t like, picky. I was just like, I got to get one. Yeah. Those two worlds collided, that were urgent. I got to pull my stuff away. And I got to have one at the same time.
Jordan Levine Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think you know, it wasn’t that that demand wasn’t there before. But you could always kind of postpone it right. We’ll wait and see what happens with rates. We’ll wait and see maybe prices come down. You know, there’s a lot of naysayers on housing out there and, and stuff like that. And so I think that you’re absolutely right, once you kind of it’s now or never, our rates are very, very low, the lowest they’ve, they’ve ever been. And I have that fundamental need for my home. Well, that’s a perfect storm.
Bruce Norris Yeah, that’s an interesting thing. Probably, maybe, you know, we put a report together with the title 2% mortgage rates on the front, you know, and of all the all the silly titles that come true, you know, that’s, that’s one I’m happy it did, of course, but.
Jordan Levine Right.
Bruce Norris When, I remember I was, I was on the phone with John Burns as a 10-year t bill went below 1%. He took a photo. Because I, I never thought I’d see that in my entire life. You know? And yeah, then it goes down to like .4, oh, my gosh.
Jordan Levine And it’s still low today, you know, and I think that we’re looking at low rates for this year. That’s why we’re still pretty optimistic. I think the other thing that we didn’t talk about is the flexibility, right? So, if you look at the the geographic distribution, that also is telling, right, because it’s also that people have a little bit more flexibility. Maybe you work like I did, at a company who is very office based, right? We are very, the real estate business is still largely a face to face business that’s true of individual realtors. And so, we reflect that as a trade association for, for realtors, you know, and that kind of limits your options when you’re going to that office every single day in terms of being able to achieve homeownership, and maintain that kind of balance between quality of life and your commute time and all that stuff. Well, that’s the kind of third leg of this stool that we’re talking about with the low rates and the increased demand for housing is that maybe now I can, you know, look at things a little bit further east or maybe look at the Inland Empire, you even see a lot of those resort communities doing really well. And so, I think that you, we, we had an opportunity this year is, is kind of a weird way to the verbiage for it, but to do a better job of putting the people where the housing was and I think that that unlocks opportunity for an elevated level of home sales too.
Joey Romero Jordan, I have a quick question. Now, one of the things that we do here at The Norris Group is put out a quarterly economic newsletter, and, and we use a lot of your, you know, cards, you know, stats, we kind of had to wait, because the pandemic kind of threw everything off. So, how did, how did the pandemic make affect your outlook, your predictions? How long did you have to wait? And is it still affecting as it’s still kind of up in the air?
Jordan Levine It is, I think that you know, we had to make fundamental changes. So, as an example, we’ve been, you know, for 40 years or so, we’ve been doing monthly reporting, right? We get to the second or third week of the month, and then we get you know, let the dust settle on the MLS and gather all that stuff up and tell folks what happened, what the trends are, and what you know, are the areas growing and things like that. This was, you know, days were like weeks and weeks were like months at the beginning of this crisis in terms of just so much uncertainty and trying to get our arms wrapped around this. We started going into every MLS every single day, across the whole entire state. And so, just, you know, the amount of data that we were having to chop and slice and dice through the amount of automated processes, we had to stand up almost overnight. We’re talking about, you know, exponential quantities of data that we’re looking at, because we’re used to go in 12 times a year, right or 13 times a year to do a re benchmarking maybe. And then by, you know, the first four weeks of the pandemic or so we had already downloaded twice as much, you know, transactional information as we would have in a normal year. And so that, you know, required a lot from us but what it did was it unlocked the ability to day by day, go in and keep weekly tabs and monthly tabs on where we were compared to last you know, March, April, May. And so, very quickly, we had a sense of just like, what the bottom looked like, in terms of orders of magnitude, we didn’t know if it was gonna be 150,000, home sales at first, or 300,000, or 90,000, or what, and so, that was, was, you know, huge. My I, you know, I wish I could take credit for it, my team actually stepped up to the plate and just did a Herculean lift, so that by the 16th of March, we were, we had a standing process that was hitting all MLS in California every single day, so that we were able to aggregate that up at a statewide level.
Joey Romero Will you carry that forward?
Jordan Levine We’re gonna keep that going forward. And we’re still figuring out the best way to make that information consumable. Like I think, you know, the the dream is to make even like a real time or like, as close to a real time indicators we can get so that when you go to, you know, car.org, or whatever that it just says, like, you know, January 16, we’re up 3% year to date, or, you know, month to date compared to where we started the year. And that’s my dream is to be able to do that and unlock the ability to drill that down to the sub market, so, stay tuned.
Joey Romero Oh, there you go Bruce. There’s a ticker for you.
Bruce Norris I’ve got a question for you on affordability. Because year over year, where are we? We were in the low 30s. And then we got to where are we now about high 20s?
Jordan Levine High 20s. Yep. And we’re still working on the fourth quarter number. You know, the problem is predicting what happened with incomes, right, because income data from the government has lagged. And so, usually we’re extrapolating out the most recent couple of quarters. And so, now, you know, usually that’s not that difficult. You look at the unemployment rate, you look at the average wage numbers, which are more timely, you do some back of the napkin kind of analysis and build those historical correlations. But now you have real honest to goodness lost income, you’ve got the government monkeying around with the income numbers as well. And so, it, it’s been a challenge on affordability. But what we can see in the actual weekly and monthly data as if you just look at straight up price growth. And then you combine that with the low rates, we can kind of get a sense of what’s happening with typical monthly mortgage payments. And for the last eight to 12 weeks, the effect of these higher prices is finally starting to cancel out the benefit of the low rates, low rates are still a blessing, right? It’s not going to kill off the market. But you know, it used to be the fact that it was actually monthly mortgage payments were falling. So, even as prices were going up, the reduction in rates was more than offsetting those increases in prices. And now we’re going back the opposite way as we’ve been in the double digits for the last two to three months.
Bruce Norris What’s always been interesting to me, as I look at charts, is that typically at the end of the cycle, we have four years of really strong sales. So, 86, 87, 88, 89. I know 2000, say four or five, six was a little skewed. But in other words, there was artificial, but you still had a lot of sales. Same thing happened at the end of the 70s. What’s interesting about those rise in sales is they come at the at the dissension as affordability declines. And that seems counterproductive. But the human nature kicks in I think sort of like a Bitcoin, if you will, I bet they didn’t have any trouble selling Bitcoin at 39 until probably tomorrow, but when Real Estate’s hot, does the emotion kick in and Trump affordability if the lender would say yes.
Jordan Levine Yeah, I think that there’s, you know, a definitely a kind of herd instinct element to to all markets, right? You see that in the stock market and things are more volatile, because that’s exactly what folks are trying to do, right? Is get ahead of the curve and beat, beat everybody else. And, and so, I do think that there’s, there’s an element to that, I do think that there’s more of a kind of steep supply curve, I guess, would be the kind of econ nerds way of saying it, though, where, you know, in housing in particular, there, you know, the demand fluctuations are happening against a relatively fixed amount of housing stock at any one time. And so, I think that tends to, to kind of magnify things and so, I think that you know, you have that and then the, the low rates are creating real honest to goodness, you know, purchasing power things that’s, that’s one of the, the kind of paradoxes of low rates, right, low rates can show up and in kind of one of two ways that I buy the same price house, and I save a bunch of money on my monthly mortgage payment, or more realistically, since we’re at, you know, two months of supply and you’ve got all these buyers, you know, I think mortgage applications are still up 20 or 30% from this time last year. that it actually ends up showing up, as you know, I’ll just offer more money because now I can afford to make a higher offer without, you know, affecting my monthly debt to income ratio. And that’s what’s kind of fueling this, this 16 and 17% price growth is that, you know, buyers needed that edge, because we’re in such a competitive kind of marketplace, partly because of the low rates and those fundamentals and all that stuff, so.
Bruce Norris That’s a good point, so not paying anything monthly for the overpricing that pretty much is, it was a wash. I got a question, do you think the momentum is going to continue?
Jordan Levine I think that there is some strength to the housing demand, I think that it does have legs, particularly because some of it was, you know, structural was fundamental part of it is the improving economy, right, that we used to be at 16% unemployment. Now we’re back down at 8%, low rates and all that. But I think that at least some of the flexibility, I don’t expect us all to be working in our spare bedroom for the rest of our lives. But I think at least some of the flexibility is going to be here to stay I think it’s a matter of percent, right? And we talking about, you know, 15% 30%, halftime in the office, it’s going to be somewhere on a, on a kind of sliding scale for different companies. But I think that that gives some legs to housing demand. Because, you know, if you look at our survey research, which we’ve done survey research since the late 70s. You know, we asked just fundamental stuff about the housing market, like do you want to own your own home is owning your own home part of the American dream. And actually, you know, for all the stuff you read in the newspaper about how millennials only want to live in condos and walk to Trader Joe’s and all that stuff, you do see that they you know, once it comes time for those big life changes, which granted are happening later for folks than they used to you’re doing that stuff and you’re you know, you’re getting married, having kids in your mid to late 30s instead of mid to late 20s. But once that stuff happens, they still want a house, right? They still want a backyard, they want a garage. And so, I think that the reason why they weren’t buying was because they didn’t want to, you know, pay, pay an arm and a leg essentially. And so, when you have the flexibility, again to look at other markets where there’s more housing supply, or affordability is in a bit better shape, or you have more of that balance between quality of life. And you know, even our most affordable markets, unfortunately, aren’t aren’t particularly affordable. I moved up to the central coast to get away from LA’s prices. And it isn’t cheap to live here. But relative to what you get for your money. And so, I think you’ll see a lot of that calculus playing out and, and ultimately resulting in this kind of upward shift, at least permanently, at least partially, permanently, right in, in housing demand.
Bruce Norris When California’s median price is about ballpark 700 grand, US is about three and a quarter. There’s only a few times that we get past 200% of the national average.
Jordan Levine Yeah.
Bruce Norris And one of the, one of the things that happens is people migrate elsewhere.
Jordan Levine Yeah.
Bruce Norris So, do you feel like that’s likely to occur or it is occurring already?
Jordan Levine It’s already occurring. So, we just got new numbers for 2020. from the Department of Finance. Well, we got two important numbers over the course of the last couple of weeks, I guess, month now. One was from the census numbers, the census, population statewide population estimate numbers would show that California’s population in 2020, at least on that July estimate, shrunk for the first time in over 100 years, right? Since they started recording data. I think back in the early I think 1905 was maybe the earliest.
Bruce Norris And that was including natural increases, birth over death?
Jordan Levine That includes people having babies, exactly. And so, that is is a hugely significant number. Then we got the Department of Finance, which showed which breaks down that headline number. So, the Department of Finance still showed growth, right? If you look at theirs, I think it was like 0.16% increase, which was is still the slowest, you know ever recorded. It wasn’t the decline that the census found. But what but what it does do is it breaks down that number. So, you can see under the hood. And what you can see is, is that A. we had an acceleration in out migration, and these were numbers taken in July, right. So, this doesn’t include all the people who left in the second half of the year, so potentially could be even worse next year, but they had already accelerated to 260,000. And what you see is that the birth numbers have really started to taper off as as well, right? And so, and the other side is on the immigration side, which didn’t, you know, pump up the overall population number either and so, those, that’s really the trifecta, that that kind of leads to the number that the census is reporting.
Bruce Norris Would you say it’s a fair statement to say that the only population growth that California typically as had in last couple years and maybe for the next any number of years would be birth over death and not gain of an adult through migration? Is that a fair statement?
Jordan Levine Yeah, I think so. And I think ultimately, what you’re saying is that the supply problem has now started to become a demand problem, right? It’s primarily because of that stuff we find in our survey research, people want to own their own homes. And if they can’t achieve the American dream here, they can do it somewhere else. And unlike the late 90s, right, where we were the only game in town, if you wanted to work in tech or something like that, or biotech or all these really high paying industries, there’s there’s a lot of other options for that type of employment in states where you don’t have to spend three quarters of a million dollars to get an average home.
Bruce Norris When you look at if you could look at the financial statement of the people that migrate here versus the people that leave California.
Jordan Levine Yeah.
Bruce Norris Which, which one of those would be wealthier. That people would come, or people will leave?
Jordan Levine We’re not doing a good job of attracting too many people on net, we did see some tiny bit of in migration actually, at the top end of th,e the very top end of the income spectrum, but most of it is is kind of right in, in the sweet spot in terms of our labor force, right? There are people who are making like 75 to $150,000 a year there are people who work in management positions, right? Or there are middle managers are people who work in software companies are kind of frontline people who do all the important stuff that you need just to have an actual society, right, our teachers, our firefighters, our police officers, all that kind of stuff, our construction workers, you talk about, you know, a kind of unintended consequence right, of, of this housing crisis, as we talked about how much supply we need. One of the biggest categories if you look at it occupationally is tradesmen, right? We’re losing carpenters, and plumbers, and welders and all these skilled, you know, folks that we need to actually bring new supply online. So, so, the paradox is that by not building enough, we’re actually putting ourselves further and further behind the eight ball in terms of our ability to, to build housing, I think if you look at the wealthy people, you do see those big headlines, right, like Elon moved to Texas, and, and all of that stuff. But I think the the more affluent folks are the ones who can still afford to live here and kind of can stomach the trade off between cost and quality of life, right? It’s the folks who can’t achieve the American dream that want to take off.
Bruce Norris Net worth tax, like wealth tax, that’s not a good formula for keeping those people.
Jordan Levine Yeah, definitely. I think that there’s, you know, the the kind of tax code could could definitely use some, some looking at for sure. I think that, you know, we have such a kind of progressive tax code, that, that what you would think was, you would see the exact opposite, right? All the kind of wealthy people bugging out, but I think that, you know, eventually. And one of the interesting things, if you look at the demographics, not just in in the income front is that they’re done. You know, we don’t get party affiliation, but there does seem to be some kind of, you know, climate component, if you will, to, to the out migration, where folks are kind of just sick of the kind of way the state is run.
Bruce Norris Okay. How do businesses you, California.
Jordan Levine You know, I think that California has never been particularly business friendly. But that the interesting thing is that you’re you’re starting to see a broader coalition of folks connecting the dots on the root cause of this. And so, I think, you know, if you look at business now, they’re, they’re seeing this housing issue squarely as a workforce issue, right? And what’s interesting, if you go back and look at studies by, you know, super smart people like Jed Kolko has looked at firm migration and things like that companies don’t usually pick up and leave wholesale other states. But what we do see is that they expand in other states, right? That you might not see them close up shop at their San Francisco headquarters, but what you do see is that they have an HQ too, right? That they put in Virginia where their workers can actually afford to own a home and stuff.
Bruce Norris Right.
Jordan Levine And so, I think that it’s, we’ve been saying this for a long time, because it affects our members directly, right? When folks can’t afford to buy and own their own homes, then the realtors can’t do, you know, the transactions for the demand that would ultimately be be out there. But this is a deeper economic issue, California has always been able to grow faster than the United States for all of our kind of warts, right? Our, you know, business unfriendliness and our high taxes and all of that stuff. We were always growing faster than the rest of the state despite that, right? And even with no supply, we just saw prices keep going up and people still bought homes and, and all of that stuff. But I think that you know, it’s, it’s starting to, to again, I think the supply issue is just gone on for so long that it’s starting to become a demand issue now,
Joey Romero Has the amortization of things had something to do with that?
Jordan Levine I think that’s part of it. I think also it’s just part of the development of the economy, right? That, that success breeds competition, right? When you saw the the tech sector blowing up. I mean, think of how much money in venture capital and all that has been thrown at, you know, this, and that has happened outside of California, you see all kinds of stuff happening in Denver and Austin, Texas and Seattle, on the east coast. And so, I think that that just, you know, you can still have access to a really smart, you know, up to speed workforce there. And that, you know, I have just as an anecdote, anecdote, or we call it Anecdata, right? My niece graduated college, and she had one of those fancy degrees that everyone wants, right, she did computer science, and she was good at all that stuff, she got a job offer, you know, as a 21 year old kid to make, I think, like 85, or I think maybe it was even more like 100 grand a year or something like that, to take a job in San Francisco, and she got an $80,000 job in Denver, and she took the $80,000 job in Denver, because, can live, as you know, in a much more comfortable lifestyle, you don’t have to spend $7,000 a month sharing a two bedroom condo with four of your buddies from college. And just to be able to say that you have a six figure job.
Joey Romero To go back to the workforce a little bit. With, you know, issues of labor, how much of that is going to different industries, like how many people are, you know, used to swinging a hammer or going to go off track now?
Jordan Levine Yeah, I think, you know, what’s, what’s unfortunate is, is that we really are kind of hollowing out California’s economy, right, and that’s something that, that I really worry about is that you’re going to just push people into kind of, you know, either out of the state or into these really high, you know, paying sectors or high value added sectors and, and then we’re gonna have just kind of like a service sector economy that takes care of the needs of everybody else who works in those industries, and we’re not going to have an actual, you know, middle class and as a result, we’re not going to have those those kinds of businesses, right? And so, I think that it’s, it’s it goes back to this idea of being able to outperform we again, we’ve been able to persist and you know, outperform despite all of our challenges, but I think we’re getting to the point now where our chickens are, are starting to come home to roost. And you can see that even before this pandemic kicked in, right, if you start to compare like nonfarm job growth or GDP growth, we used to be head and shoulders above the rest of the United States. And as housing affordability deteriorates and more people leave and businesses do they’re growing elsewhere. It’s not that we stopped growing, right? California doesn’t become this big economic disaster. But we’re just no longer that that kind of top five states in the nation that we that we used to be able to bank on.
Bruce Norris Jordan, I just wanted to say thank you for doing this with us. I know that this last year has probably been the hardest year to take a look at anything and say this is real for one thing, you know, we’re going to talk next about unemployment. Yes, I look at these unemployment numbers and then I see the jobless claim number and my math is not adding up.
Jordan Levine Yeah.
Bruce Norris And that’s what we’re that’s what we’re gonna cover next. Thanks for joining us.
Jordan Levine Hey, thanks so much.
Narrator For more information on hard money, loans and upcoming events with The Norris Group, check out thenorrisgroup.com. For information on passive investing with trust deeds, visit tngtrustdeeds.com. The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669. For more information on hard money lending, go www.thenorrisgroup.com and click the Hard Money tab.