Mike Cantu

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239-TNG Radio – Rick Solis and Andrea Esplin 8-20-11

Friday, August 19th, 2011

Rick Solis

Appraiser/Investor

Andrea Esplin

Appraiser/Investor

(Full Bio)

This week Bruce is joined once again by Rick Solis and Andrea Esplin, both investors in Southern California.

Rick first noticed when things went from an up market to a flat market to a free dive in the summer of 2006. It was getting harder sell, there were less offers, and the excitement was beginning to fall off. He noticed the free dive in 2008 when things got really bad. Bruce said prices were dropping about 3-4% a month. You could buy things 30% below market value, and only 10 months later all your equity was gone. We were not in the buy and hold, but sometimes you almost got there because it was tough to sell, so it was a scary time. For business at the time, Rick and Andrea bought two rental houses in 2008. Although Andrea wanted to buy a lot, Rick was not buying as much because he saw what was coming, and in 2009 he sat out the whole year and didn’t want any part of the market. In 2009 Andrea was buying from all REO inventories, so it completely changed from where she was chasing the deal before with absentee mailers. Now she was building relationships with agents. She wants to build relationships to where she can have repeat business. She quit going to lunch with her investors and started going with realtors. This is the advantage of being around for a few cycles in that you realize the skill set you know how to do, in her case meeting with people, really does not play a part in the current cycle as much as it does building a relationship that is repetitive. It’s almost like having an account where you call on a store that you own where you have a product, and you would be able to only show up once in a while and take an order. This is what this cycle, this quadrant 2, is like. You are building relationships that have legs, which is very different from a one-call closing skill like in 2003 and 2004 that you would need. You want long-term relationships. For people who are in this business for the first time now, the assumption is that this is how it works.

The Norris Group just had a boot camp where two people were doing short sales. However, the word short sale was not even understood for a decade at a time in California. They have a business model that is working perfectly until it doesn’t work, and then it will be nonexistent for a long time. This is what is tricky about what The Norris Group does. You really have to have different skill sets for whatever phase you’re in at the time. Rick said it seems a lot of the investors are good at one thing and not the rest, so people like those in short sales are only in it for a few years. Either they have to change or find a new job because short sales are going away at some point. It’s like saying you’re really good at attending HUD auctions, but the last one they had was back in 1997. Even trustee sales are going to be very slim. In 5 or 6 years from now, there will not be as much trustee sale business. It will be interesting since the Norris Group does this now, the margins are very tight. The quantity of people interested in it is very big, but Bruce said they used to fund people, who were doing it before, and their margins were good but there were fewer people and fewer properties. Therefore, the ratio actually turned out to be fine. What has changed, especially in the REO business, is the accessed information is so much easier and quicker to come up with an intelligent decision that they have people walking in to a business that don’t know very much that become close to 80% capable inside of two months. This is hard to compete with. Even for the ones that leave, there is a whole new wave showing up that only needs two months of training and are then pros. It doesn’t mean they are coming to accurate conclusions, but they think they are. It wouldn’t be hard to do an appraisal if you think just pushing a button and getting an opinion off of a site like Zillow that’s accurate. Oddly enough, the flatter the market is, the more accurate Zillow is. Bruce just pulled ten recent sales because he wanted to see, and it was only 1 out of 10 properties that were wrong by 10%. Most of them were within 2%. In a flat market, even the assessed values are pretty tight. It gives somebody a false sense that they know what they’re doing, especially if this is all they have seen and they think Zillow is correct all the time, whereas a few years ago it was not even remotely correct.

The type of inventory that Rick and Andrea are buying and holding is different from the buy/sell inventory in that the buy/sell inventory can include much bigger houses, houses with pools, two story houses, or nicer areas. This is absolutely necessary because this is what the retail buyer really wants. Because of the interest rates, if he is going to buy he is going to be able to afford the inventory that he wants. If Rick and Andrea tried to sell inventory they have in Victorville they’re renting, even if the price per month would be nothing, they said it would be a challenge.

There is a huge difference between buyers with the two properties Andrea has in Anaheim and Rialto. The Anaheim property is a single-family house that Rick flipped to her. The house originally was a mess and needed a lot of money to fix, and this is what has changed as far as what they sell and one of the reasons The Norris Group shifted to the trustee sale inventory. 75% of what they have is newer than 2000 and bigger than 2000 square feet, and this is really the sweet spot for the retail buyer. This would not make a good rental. For most of their rentals, they have less than $100,000 tied up in the rehab and the purchase price. If you’re over $100,000 and you’re getting hard money financing, it’s hard to make that pencil out. You have to end up with the farther out and older things. You’re not going to get a lot of Ontario, Upland, or Rancho Cucamonga rental houses right now unless you’re putting a lot of money down or you can be one of the very few people in the United States that can get an investor loan from a bank. Bruce thinks a lot of this is going to change; and he got a sense of this when he was back in Washington. They’re trying to figure out how to make it palatable to whoever they have to make happy. However, it has probably dawned on them that they’re not going to fix anything by selling things one at a time to owner occupants. Rick said he is positioning himself to take advantage of that when the financing becomes available. In Victorville, for example, one of the charts Bruce has shows that 76% of the people are over encumbered from either 10% to over 100%, which means that they’re either stationary, going to be in REO, or they’re going to be short sale. If you go up and look at how many percentages of the transactions are REO or short sale, it’s probably 80%. This means that 80% or more of the time, a buyer does not emerge from the sale of that property. Those people are going to buy. You have an extra family looking for a rental or to move in with themselves, but they don’t produce a buyer. This means that at a ratio of 4 to 1 you have to have another occupant buyer move in to their Victorville property. This is not going to happen.

In their Victorville property, the aforementioned situation is perfect for rentals, and they are getting the best renters they can. The tenants are people who just lost their house, and they think very much like a homeowner, which means they are used to taking care of things themselves. A lot of the tenants they have come in contact with are solid, hard-working, blue collar families that don’t make a huge amount of money but make a good living and can get by. They also happen to end up in a first-time buyer situation where they’re paying $400,000 for a house that’s worth about $125,000. Everybody would walk from that situation. You’re paying three times your mortgage than for what you can rent the house next door. You can understand the rationale between to know when you can’t continue to doing it forever.

Both Andrea and Rick manage the properties, although Andrea does about 80% of the property management. Rick said he doesn’t really enjoy the 20% that he does, so he is really looking forward to buying rentals. Also, when you have the thought of creative financing, you never get rid of anybody. You’re buying with a wrap, you’re selling with a wrap, and everybody is still with you. One guy who worked out in the desert used to have a $100 spread on 100 houses. This was his $10 grand a month. This would be perfect if everybody pays. He was showing Bruce this, and Bruce was thinking that if 10% of the people would pay him, he’s gone. Bruce likes the spread and buying at a discount, but he also likes being by himself and having a great life. This he said is cleaner.

Andrea and Rick were more aggressive with their purchases in 2010, but not so much in 2011. Rick misread the market and thought that with the way things were taking off that demand was coming back because of the government stimulus. He really thought the government was going to keep rolling this out, so he thought they had bottomed, making the houses cheaper and there being plenty of inventories. At the time he wanted to load up on as many as he could at that point. Once he noticed that property values were dropping, inventory levels were shrinking, and every investor and their brother was entering the market, he started losing motivation. When he notices we are bottoming again and can get good financing, then he said he is in with both of his feet. But it’s not clear how long this is going to be.

Rick and Andrea usually draw the same conclusions and are on the same page with a lot of things. All the rentals they have gotten have been from forming relationships, although now most of their inventory would be down as well as far as the REO agent themselves. They have one in particular they know will call them on a weekly basis. They’re calling now with things that don’t make sense, but they’re desperate. When Rick is appraising, he usually gets a sense of areas that are either going up or declining in different price bands or different counties. If you’re selling something over $500,000, in almost every market where you have something like this the market just seems like it’s gone. Even the really good areas like Glendora, Upland, or Claremont seem to have so little demand for the product that it’s tough. Rick doesn’t really see any areas that are going up in value, although he is mostly in the Inland Empire. He doesn’t really know about areas like Orange County or West LA County. Rick said it seems like things are gradually declining in most areas. The listings are usually higher than the sold that closed a couple months ago, and it seems like they’re dropping on average about ½% a month. Sellers are also kicking in a lot of closing costs, which translates into another 3% you’re paying out that you weren’t a year ago. Andrea has not had any appraisal issues when she was selling the property, but she doesn’t really try to squeeze it for everything. She wants it to be well-priced from the get go. She put $100,000 into her Anaheim property for repairs alone, something she knew about going in as it was a big rehab. Right now it’s listed at $485 for its resale price.

Rick believes rents right now are pretty stable. You can usually get a good tenant within a month. There are a lot of landlords that are renting to lower quality tenants and getting higher rent, but overall they have a lot more evictions, vacancies and problems that it balances out to the landlords that are pricing them at market rents. Rents are only down about 5-10% over the last 3 years. Andrea and Rick usually put their rents a little lower than market, and they try to fix their rentals as best they can, even a lot better than some landlords do. Rick sees a lot of landlords that do terrible work from missing screens to broken appliances and heaters that don’t work. These are usually the landlords who end up with the problem tenants. Rick and Andrea try to fix everything so everything is working. They want to attract the best people they can attract. The Norris Group did the same with a lot of the rentals they had in Moreno Valley. This was an area that got hit like Victorville, so you would have a fair amount of people looking at it, but you would have only one house that had repairs The Norris Group did, so it was kind of easy to pick the best one. They have not had challenges of kicking people out or with people who have missed paying their rent. One of Bruce’s thoughts was when he resold the house, he would not have to do a major rehab again because things like the granite were still going to be there.

Similar to Mike Cantu, who was on the show a couple weeks ago, Andrea finds her reading time very important to her and something non-negotiable. In addition, she also works out on a regular basis. It not only keeps her in shape and a time for her to be alone, but it is also the time she comes up with good ideas. She can decompress and think clearly. Bruce does something similar. He will have his headset on during his workout because he uses this time to think. It’s a good diffuser for him. Andrea will keep a notebook with her during her workout because she will think of things that she knows will immediately go away. It’s amazing that the ideas don’t stick around, and these are usually the best ideas.

Rick doesn’t really have anything non-negotiable. He has to have 7 hours of sleep a night, which is really the only thing non-negotiable for him. Although, he said he has offered to sell this to people. If they need a rush appraisal and are willing to pay a couple thousand dollars, he will give up a night’s sleep. When he was younger and more motivated he did read a lot, so this was non-negotiable for him back in the day.

When asked about Rick’s best quality, Andrea said he is a really great guy and has good integrity. They have been through good times, and it is easy to go through good times because of his integrity. They started out with nothing, and they had a lot to overcome. It is during moments like this you really find out the kind of person with whom you’re working. He always had her back, and they would figure things out together. It is very important to know who you’re working with especially during the tough times. Bruce has often talked to people who assumed something was in place, and he would then ask them if they had been through tough times together. He and Mike were at lunch, and Mike told Bruce he had seen a lot of people’s character change in the last couple years. Bruce replied he didn’t see the change, he saw the change revealed. This is what shows up when bad times hit.

Andrea’s quality is she will never give up. She will fight to the end to get to the finish line. A lot of the time Rick will look for the quickest and easiest solution, but Andrea will look for the best solution. No matter how bad things are, she will get to the finish line, and it usually works out a lot better than the way Rick would have gone.

Rick read a book by Dan Kennedy called My Unfinished Business, which told the story of his life, all the business he had done and how he carried out the business. He told about his failures and how he would get back up again. Reading is something you get into the habit of doing, and it becomes hard not to do it. Andrea’s bed is full of books, while Bruce has about five he’s reading all right now. What is interesting is all of his books are wrapped together. There is not one real estate book amongst them, but they are all connected tissue. One of them is about how people get to be great, and you find out you don’t have to be the most gifted person in the room. You can be the person who finds out they can try harder, work harder, and end up with the best reputation. He enjoys reading these books because he can relate to them as most people can. Most people have average skills and often ask themselves how they can become excellent. Bruce has talked with someone who has been a karate master for 40 years, and he told him the people who were the best students were not the ones who came in already gifted in karate and could do 70% of what he was going to end up doing naturally. These people very rarely have the character to take it to the level of somebody who has to struggle with every piece of it and finally emerge. This is usually how it is with investing. Starting out not having much is probably the best favor in the world because then you’re not putting too much emphasis on the things.

For more information about The Norris Group’s California hard money loans or our California Trust Deed investments, visit the website or call our office at 951-780-5856 for more information. For upcoming California real estate investor training and events, visit The Norris Group website and our California investor calendar. You’ll also find our award-winning real estate radio show on KTIE 590am at 6pm on Saturdays or you can listen to over 170 podcasts in our free investor radio archive.

Tags: Andrea Esplin, bruce norris, California short sales, Claremont, Dan Kennedy, Glendora, HUD, Mike Cantu, My Unfinished Business, Orange County, property management, rentals, reo, Rick Solis, the norris group, The Norris Group Real Estate Radio Show, trustee sales, Upland, Victorville, West LA County, zillow
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237-TNG Radio – Tony Alvarez and Mike Cantu 8-06-11

Friday, August 5th, 2011

Tony Alvarez

Investor and REO Mentor

(Full Bio)

Expert California Investor

(Full Bio)

This week Bruce is joined once again by Tony Alvarez and Mike Cantu. They are two of the most popular buyers and now trainers in California.

Whenever Mike buys a property, he gives it a job title, something Bruce has also done himself. He did not start giving anything job titles until he realized that once he had them paid off that we have a set of recurring expenses in life. Every 30 days that 30-day cycle comes around, and this is what most people battle. They get on that treadmill of life, go to work five days a week hoping to bring home enough to support themselves for seven days. Mike realized if he could get the recurring expenses taken care of, then he had the financial world by the tail. As he started getting houses paid off and removing the debt, he would give them a very specific job description. This included the insurance house, medical insurance house, food house, gas house, and any recurring expense. He realized this did not just apply to the free and clear houses. As he continued to buy houses, everything got a written job description. Some of them were to grow up in value, pay down the debt, and harvest the equity to apply towards something else paying off. He has even gone as far as writing job descriptions on post-it notes, like “Leave my life ASAP.” This would be a nasty house he was looking for a wholesale check on. They need to know what they’re there for.

Although both Mike and Tony are very accomplished, both have different methodologies. We have a boom cycle where prices escalate in ’05 and ’06, and Mike intentionally doesn’t sell and is still very happy with this decision. Mike’s mission from the day he got into real estate was to have enough quality passive incomes to live life on his terms, not having to answer to somebody and being afraid of work. He has a challenge being told what to do, especially spending his life working towards someone else’s goals. Mike has seen several people who have gotten to that point who became too aggressive and forgot the original plan was working toward someone else’s goals, not their own and had it all go away. Mike heard his mentor Jack Miller say, “A wise man once said, ‘Once you’ve got it made, there’s no reason to take any more chances’.” With that philosophy, Mike is a firm believer that you need to take things off the table as you move forward in life and don’t jeopardize yesterday’s success by tomorrow’s late night wild ideas. Everything going into the future has to stand on its own because at this point in the game Mike’s number one priority is protecting himself from himself. He can make a mess out of things real quick, so as long as the past is off limits; leave it alone. The future is fair game.

When Bruce and Tony met, Bruce was speaking at the Apartment Association meeting. From day 1, Tony’s pile of properties was ready to go to auction. His job assignment was to create a pile of dough at some point, which worked for him. Tony found Bruce because he had been looking for advice from different people. Bruce was involved in trying to figure out the markets and what they were doing. Bruce was one of the people who gave Tony really good advice; and from there they became good friends. Tony had a specific goal when he first got into the market, having just come out of bankruptcy, and at the time he wanted to make a million dollars, own ten houses free and clear, and get $10,000 a month. He wasn’t looking to set the world on fire. Ten years later, he actually had $10 million before taxes, and he was in shock. Most of the inventory he bought was out in the high desert and the Antelope Valley. Tony wasn’t necessarily buying houses that he wanted or would run up to and hug every day. They weren’t really A-list houses, but Tony wasn’t really thinking in these terms of A, B, or C list houses until he met Mike. He was the one who woke Tony up and said, “You know, you have to take that spreadsheet and break it down into what you want and what you want to get rid of.” This was a wake up call for Tony. He realized everything on his list of houses had to go. He sold out at the peak of the market and cashed out completely. Back in ’05 Tony asked Bruce what month he thought was the peak, and Bruce responded that he had too many properties to change the market and to just dump in his own things. Bruce was the one instrumental in getting Tony to stay a little longer. At the time Tony was ready to sell in the market, while Bruce wasn’t even ready to build in it yet. Bruce was charting this for Rosamond, thinking Tony was really early. Tony was at $7 million and was ready to bail since he had just come from bankruptcy and it had taken him 7 years to get to that much money. To him it felt like he had won the lottery, and he is a very frugal person. The most he has every paid himself is $1,000 a week, and he has no debt and only one credit card. Capital One, who gives a credit card to everyone, threw him out because they were not making any money off of him. As aforementioned, Bruce was the one who convinced him to stay longer and not bail out. Tony actually came to Bruce to confirm that he should sell out, and instead Bruce told him to stay longer because his area was not quite done yet. But what impressed Bruce the most was Tony’s spreadsheet. He knew where every nickel was going, and he is still very cautious and particular about keeping his records. He follows the rentals and knows to a percentage what he is expecting to net at the end of a cycle of a year.

Tony learned something from Mike when he heard him speak once that he has incorporated it into every effort and decision he makes. What he learned is that one Mike is finished with his deals; he will sit back, look at it, and see what he did right, what he did wrong, and what he can do differently. Tony had never done this before hearing Mike. Bruce had just read an article titled “Ten Traits that make you Filthy Rich,” and the one Bruce believes epitomizes Mike is #6, which is reflectiveness. He has never known anybody who takes a look at what they have done over the course of a property, a year, or a life as much as Mike does and analyzes how things went and how they can be improved. If you really do that, then you are practicing with intent. Sometimes you do something for a year, and you don’t improve. However, it is impossible not to improve if you are that intent on analyzing how things went. In Tony’s small office, what he learned from Mike has become a very important part of how he handles things, even in the way he does office work. He has a weekly meeting with his two business partners where he will sit down and looks at how they attacked something the previous week and what they could do differently. When you put this into play on a weekly basis, you sometimes think there is nothing left and your brain is bleeding almost. It seems like there is nothing more you can improve. However, sure enough you find something that you can do differently and expand a different way. This is what has improved him ability to come up with seven deals in a week, which for Tony is a lot. He was very impressed with Mike’s ideas, as was everyone else in the office. Usually, we all feel like we have reached a certain level of competency, and yet we’re all capable of learning from each other. A very smart thing to expose yourself to is being open to learning from people who have reached it a different way, and you just keep honing and making it a more refined process.

Mike has spent more many on education that anyone Bruce has ever known, and there were many who mentored him in this area and planted the permanent seed and caused him to see what his model was and why he liked it. His biggest, all-time influence was Jack Miller, who passed away a couple years ago. It was a sad day for Mike, but he took the afternoon off and went home to his home library. He remembered counting up 46 Jack Miller seminar manuals. There was another dozen manuals where he did classes with other people, every booklet he had written, every newsletter. Jack was such an influence who really shaped him. Others were John Schaub, who still teaches to this day. Mike tells people anything John’s printed he has and is worthy of paying for it. Peter Fortunato has been another huge influence, as well as Bruce Norris himself. When Tony heard Bruce at Jack Fullerton’s years ago, he couldn’t believe the work he was doing right in Riverside. There is a very small handful of people from whom Mike will learn. The #1 requirement is you still have to be actively in the business. There are a lot of real estate hucksters out there who have done a few deals, have good marketing skills, and sell a lot of rehashed, packaged worthless information. It’s sad when he sees the Homer Simpsons of America being taken advantage of. They have a real estate dream, and someone vacuums their seed money out of their wallet. A lot of times the price they pay for those kinds of things could have gotten them into their first deal.

Both Mike and Tony have gotten into the education side of real estate, and for Mike speaking for the first time was not a very comfortable event. He described it as a complete our of body experience. He jokingly said he was off to the side watching a guy that looked a lot like him, and his thought was, “Look at him go. He started talking; can anybody turn that guy off?” He remembered for an extended period of time being off to the side watching the guy that looked just like him go, go, go. He wasn’t sure what he was saying, but he sure was talking. But afterwards, he got a standing ovation and called to tell Bruce that now he knew why Bruce did what he did. Mike thought he was going to need someone to tie a rope around his ankle because they would have had a Mike kite stuck to the ceiling.

For Tony, the first opportunity for him to speak was at an event; and Bruce said he knew more about Tony than Tony. Bruce knew he was going to hit the park. Bruce knew Tony’s speech was going to be the hit, hence why he put him at the end. No one was going to want to follow him. Tony described that day as the greatest day he had besides his son being born. He remembered before he even went in he was getting more and more nervous and he wasn’t sure how everything was going to go. Bruce then asked him what he was worried about and if he planned on lying to anybody out there in the audience. This really shook Tony up, as he knew he wasn’t going to lie. Bruce responded, “Well, did you do this or not?” When Tony said yes, Bruce told him just go out there and tell them what he did. Sat him right back down, and it was a fantastic time. The reaction of the crowd was phenomenal, something he never expected. There were people lining up to hug him and crying. At first he didn’t understand why they were crying, but it was obviously with the intensity that he explained the things he did. He thinks he may have even done too much of this afterwards and got to the point where he realized he could only do this so much. It does take a lot of time and energy. Writing a document is no joke, especially if you’re a high school dropout. The residual is you are probably going to spend part of your day talking to people that took something you gave. Everybody wants to take you to lunch and have you do the whole seminar over again.

Mike’s experience with speaking has been the same. He realizes it does take time and energy, but he also realizes it’s part of the big picture and part of giving back. He had good help early on, and he would not be where he is at today without the help he received. He is happy to pass it on as long as people are going to attempt to use what he shares with them. Earlier Mike had mentioned Jack Miller as his biggest inspiration. The goal of most people is to have done something in their life that had a legacy to it, like Jack Miller did for Mike. Education does this. No one is going to care that you bought 50 houses, but someone will care that you taught them how to buy two houses. This is what education does; it gives you a permanent piece of somebody’s future. This is an exciting and worthwhile thing. It expands the benefits that you have given to yourself as well as broadens and makes it deeper for you.

Bruce believes both Mike and Tony are more passionate about the actual process of buying homes. In just talking to both of them he realizes that if you had a clean slate, no one is going to bother you in the next 24 hours. In that time both Tony and Mike would go see about ten houses. For Bruce, the house-buying business was a vehicle to an end. For Tony, he loves to write and share what he has learned. He said he will speak again, but will be very selective about how he does it. He is considering doing something on a larger and more national basis than just Southern California. He’s giving it a lot of thought because the one thing he values more than anything else is his time. He believes over time and going through everything, being in real estate, losing it, and making it again, he will come out the other side and realize it’s the only thing he has and can’t judge when his time is going to be up. Therefore, he has to be very specific about where he wants to spend his time. Even when doing the radio show with Bruce, he said Bruce is someone who he will go right away if he calls him to do something for him. Tony’s $7 million he had went to $10 million because of Bruce’s direct advice. Bruce was the one who held him still and told him not to sell it. Tony made $1 million for each year that he did not sell his inventory. Bruce understands that there is a lot of pressure when you are on the predicting side. Mike Novak-Smith recently sent Bruce an email about an article he wrote back in 2007 telling him how accurately the things Bruce wrote about were being played out. Tony is now saying thank goodness; but four years ago he wasn’t really there yet. He’s in the same boat now. He starts saying something, he is going to run out and start doing exactly what he said. There is some pressure to this. The one thing that is hard to figure is the desire that both Tony and Mike have is intense. They have had to overcome plenty of roadblocks, and there are going to be these same roadblocks. This is the missing ingredient. It’s like you know to take the phone call and run the ad, but how do you go past getting the fifth no to get the yes at the end. Mike responded that he was recently shared a YouTube video that really hit home. It’s about a five-minute clip, and it’s called “Honey Badger, Don’t Care.” As he watched the honey badger just cruise around, stick his nose into the beehive, get bitten 1,000 times, pay no attention to them, then go over and grab the cobra as it was biting him and chew his head off, he realized this is the exact same attitude you have to have. Honey badgers don’t care; and in the same way you just have to keep on going. You do your best with the people skills along the way; we’re not out to offend anybody or be rude. You just have to get over that. Most people don’t want to approach another person and have conversation, so it’s about doing what has to be done. He was shared a good philosophy many years ago that said, “Do what others won’t for five years, and you can do what others can’t for the rest of your life.” Being the bubbling optimist that he was, he soaked every word of it up and believed it. He was actually quite frustrated when it took him a few more years than five years to where he knew he was in the lower part of the category, but at least he was in the category.

When Bruce had set his goals and went to show them to Jim Rohn at a seminar he was speaking at, Brue thought he was on the slow boat to China. Jim told him it had taken him one year longer than the five, and Bruce was glad he told him this. In a way, we are there right now. We don’t have the luxury of a 20% up cycle this year, so we’re not going to touch a property and have it go up $150 grand and get bonused. The skill to know how to buy something below market is the equity set is going to show up for a while. This is an important skill, because if it doesn’t happen, then you’re going to have less of a cash flow or less of a margin. What we know how to do is a pretty cool tool for equity and cash flow. Tony really respects Mike a whole lot because he has always felt Mike does his job a lot better than he does. Tony loves everything about the work he does, so if there is someone he doesn’t like who he is talking to, he is not there for very long. Mike, on the other hand, has the ability to transcend that sometimes; and he just works his magic. He buys houses over the phone, which is something Tony still hasn’t done yet. Mike rarely meets people intentionally and had an interesting experience the last time he did. Mike said it could have been a self-perception problem that he had because he figured if they met face to face, then it was over before it even started. Over the phone it’s completely different because they have no idea who he is. Over the years, he has learned if he has the opportunity to meet with someone face to face, then he would rather do that. Three purchases ago, the lady lived two and a half blocks away from his office. As soon as she told him this, he asked her what the next half hour of her life looked like, and she said it was wide open. He grabbed a used wicker basket, went out in the yard, grabbed a half dozen of the world’s best oranges, threw in a couple grapefruits, lemons, avocados, then showed up at her door with a gift basket ready to talk business.

Tony’s best advice for someone who has lost everything and has to start over is to get over it as fast as you can. Don’t sweat the small things. We’re really not aware of what we can accomplish. As you start in the business and start meeting other people, you start to realize that there are so many people willing to come to you aid because they also want to do something for themselves. We all want to get there. Everyone in the room during the radio show and probably people Bruce is going to interview next have been people who have in some way made him better at what he is doing or helped him accomplish some of his goals along the way. You just have to start walking into it. You cannot park two cars in one space. If you’re constantly thinking about what’s destroyed you in your mind, which you think is the enemy, nothing else can get in. You have to open your mind up to a completely different direction, and it takes just a very conscious focus and decision. Sometimes you have to walk in the direction where you don’t see what is going to occur.

For Mike, he also says to get over it. You have to restart the car. He knows a lot of people who used to be in real estate that are still sitting in a parked car. You cannot go forward in a parked car. You have to turn the key over and get the thing running again. You have to review the basics, get back to the fundamentals, find a money partner, then go full-on, get out there, go after it, then don’t quit until you have what you came to obtain. In some ways, we forget how we became successful in the first place was probably even in a worst spot than we would be doing a second time because we know so much. We had nothing in the beginning. We didn’t know anything, and we had nothing. The second time around, if you can get over the mental side, is easier.

Tags: bruce norris, Honey Badger Don’t Care, jack miller, Jim Rohn, John Schaub, Mike Cantu, Mike kite, Mike Novak-Smith, Peter Fortunato, riverside, southern california, Ten Traits that make you Filthy Rich, the norris group, The Norris Group Real Estate Radio Show, Tony Alvarez
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236-TNG Radio – Tony Alvarez and Mike Cantu 7-30-11

Friday, July 29th, 2011

Tony Alvarez

Investor and REO Mentor

(Full Bio)

Mike Cantu

Expert California Investor

(Full Bio)

This week Bruce is joined by Tony Alvarez and Mike Cantu. Both names are household names in Southern California real estate investor buying. Bruce has known both of them for many years, Mike the longest.

First with Mike, he got started in the house buying business almost 30 years ago from a late night infomercial he watched. After seeing the commercial, he hung onto every word, fell for it hook, line, and sinker, and said he was a bit naïve. But, he said he was glad he was naïve because he believed every word of it, and it actually frustrated him the first year because he wasn’t doing quite as well as the guy on the infomercial. But, he knew that if the guy on the infomercial had done it, then he had done it. He never suspected at the time he might have been an actor. And this trend to fall for education has continued in the way where Mike is an education fanatic, so his attitude has always been, “As long as I am in the game, I will be a student of the game.” Real estate is a moving target every year; they have a different playing filed, rules, and numbers. This year is certainly no exception, and in one of the first classes Mike went to, the instructor said, “When you’re green you grow, and when you’re ripe you rot.” He is not ready to be put out to pasture yet, so he will continue educating himself. Prior to work, from 16-21 years Mike was a professional skateboarder on the Pepsi skateboard team. This was his job that he loved, but it wasn’t until that job ended that he got a taste of the real world and thought that it was going to be a bit tough. He had gotten used to several things by then in real estate, and the benefits it had to offer seemed to fit the mold for the lifestyle he was looking for. During the second month of his junior year of high school, he took a proficiency test and proceeded to go to community college at night for almost 11 years. When he was 16, he had an attitude that he knew everything and then some; and he even said, “I know everything I need to know except two things and they haven’t been invented yet, so I’m not going to worry about them.” As the years went by and he got older, he realized there was a lot of missing pieces. Once he was exposed to what he didn’t know, he then became good and frustrated and realized it was going to be a lifelong education process. When he was going to community college to receive his education, he would typically take one class at a time and only missed one semester during the full 11 years. He took every real estate and business class they offered. The first year he took a couple basic courses like psychology, which was actually one of the big breakthroughs he had in life.

Next with Tony, his story is very similar to Mike’s. He first got started in the real estate business when he purchased every product he could get his hands on from an infomercial hook, line, and sinker. He went through some of the products, but most made it to the shelf. He actually never finished high school, having dropped out with only 1 month to go. He also went on to take classes at a junior college, including all the real estate classes. If you added up all the classes he took, he probably took more units from college than most of the people who were there teaching. Even though it was originally the commercials on television that sparked his interest, he had a desire because he came from another country, from Cuba. He grew up in neighborhoods where Tony didn’t have much while the other kids did. One example was while everyone else had penny loafer shoes, he had the black tie shoes from a second-hand store. He was thinking at the time, “Some day I will have enough money so I can have those penny loafers.” So he decided to become an appraiser. Once he took all the Dave Deldado courses from the television, he went out and started buying right away. He jumped in and started looking at houses in Burbank. In one specific situation, he was looking at the first house he was going to buy, a fixer-upper. He had taken his mother with him, who is a big negotiator. When they opened the door of the house, a bird flew out where there was supposed to be windows, and immediately she turned to the agent who was there and told them they were trying to rip them off. He was standing away from the house, and the agent came up and put his hand on his shoulder and told him, “You have to buy this house because it is a great deal.” This has never left Tony because this was the moment where he realized he really didn’t know what he was doing and was completely relying on someone who was trying to make a commission to him. This led him to become a real estate appraiser because he wanted to understand how to identify value. This led him to stay up late studying up on how other appraisers chose to do their financing and their underwriting, where he said he received his real education.

Bruce wondered what part negotiating skills happens to be cultural versus studied. Ironically, Tony said he reads a lot of different articles in the morning and is up to about 42 different places that he goes to for sources. One particular article that came across his desk was about Cubans negotiating on street corners for homeownership. For Tony, negotiating and being Cuban are synonymous. It is in their culture. Anybody from California who visits Mexico will see you can’t leave the country without negotiating for chicklets. Tony said he watches his mother negotiate at the grocery store, and all the times he saw her do it he thought it was normal and didn’t think anything of it. Mike, on the other hand, had to learn to enjoy negotiating because he did not grow up in a negotiating household. He was the introvert in his family, so learning to interact how to negotiate with people was very uncomfortable early on. After a few victories, he realized the only thing standing between him and anything on the planet is him asking. It wasn’t his goal to be a great negotiator, but it was his goal to be a great “asker.” He has had wonderful things happen just from asking where he knew there was 0 chance of anything happening without the words coming out of his mouth. Even though he said he has gotten turned down a lot, he still asks. Most people don’t realize that anybody in the real estate/appraiser business that has been successful is probably the most rejected people on the planet. You have to smash the rejection gauge and get over it. Mike has a card with some of the things he writes down while negotiating. One of the things he writes is a reminder to just ask the question, no matter how uncomfortable it is, you have to do what you have to do. When he talks to sellers on the telephone, he likes to start with a blank sheet of yellow paper. Few words will come to mind, but “ask” is always one that gets written down. He doesn’t make a list, he writes all over the page; and they’re just random thoughts, off ramps, segways. They’re things other people have told him that are going to be revisited.

Mike is huge in goal setting. One of the first books he ever bought was called Lazy Man’s Way to Riches, by Joe Karbo. It had nothing to do with real estate, and he had no idea what it was. But, in the book it said to write your goals down, and Mike figured the writer knew what he was talking about. Mike followed the book to the letter, putting everything down on 3×5 cards. He remembers reading an article shortly thereafter called “Princeton Graduates: Twenty Years Later.” In the article, the interviewees went back and revisited the people in the class. 3% of the class had written goals, 97% didn’t. The 3% that did have written goals had a combined net worth much larger than the other 97% combined. Along with what he had read in the book, he is now a believer to this day to write down your goals. To this day, he has written goals that he updates regularly and reads every morning and night with no exception. Some of his original goals were pretty meager. He had one goal he wrote before he turned 18. In his first goal, he had already made a $20 deposit, but his goal card said, “I, Mike Cantu, am the proud owner of my four re-tread tires from J and J Tires. I have gotten them off layaway and have paid the $40 balance in full.” That goal actually did come true because only three days later he had to pull off the side of the freeway, pull out a steak knife and cut off a big piece of flapping rubber. His other goal that humors him to this day was about how he figured if he was going to be a business man he would need a suit. His card said, “I, Mike Cantu, am the proud owner of not 1, but 2 business suits. What is interesting about goals is they are basically lying in advance. Most of the times when you are making your goals, some of the things you write are things that are not even in your reach. When you start writing about how you want free and clear houses, at the time you’re writing it to inspire yourself, it’s kind of remote. Mike says he has never had this problem. Once the ink hit the paper, he believed it and it became real. This is one of the secrets of writing goals. In the book Lazy Man’s Way to Riches, it talks about the subconscious mind that starts dealing with it as if it’s a fact. If it’s not a fact, it’s uncomfortable and gets it there as quick as possible. As soon as Bruce makes a goal, his mind begins tracking and refuses to pay attention to things that normally would be tempting. Instead, he just says he can’t do that. Mike says he would have a tendency to get frustrated because it would take a long time for the goal to be achieved. Bruce said part of him is always surprised how quickly goals are obtained. He took a Jim Wrung course one time, and in this course you divided your goals into 1, 3, or 5 year goals. When you are writing five-year goals, you really have to think way out there. Then you find out it only took you a year and a half to achieve it. With all the goal-setting Mike has done, he has noticed two patterns. First, we have a tendency to way overestimate what we can accomplish in a year. Second, we have a tendency to way underestimate what we can accomplish in five years.

With Tony, goals are and always have bee a part of everything he does. The difference is Tony has limitations in his ability to focus his attention. He did not think of them so much as goals as much as they were his to-do list of things that needed to be accomplished and places he needed to go. This started really early on, and it was really a way for him to keep his focus. The one thing when you speak about goals and what you can accomplish within a year or five years is a lot of times when we set goals we think in terms of what we are going to do proactively. However, there is also something that almost takes on a life of its own the minute you get your focus right. Tony’s focus becomes almost laser once he wants to do something. If you talk to other people, like in business, and you tell them what you want to do and where you are going and believe strongly enough in it, then they can’t help but get on board with you because they feel like they are going to miss out if they don’t.

There are some things for Tony that is non-negotiable. One of these is talking to his grandson. He talks to him everyday, and he makes sure he has that communication with him wide open. His grandson has his own computer and cell phone, so he cannot find a way to tell Tony that he couldn’t get to him. His grandson has become the star of his life and is the one thing that really keeps him going because even in business now, if you experience a certain level of success it is actually the worst thing that can happen to some people. It’s like having a goal that you set, and then the next day you’re wondering what to do with yourself.

Mike’s non-negotiable goal is reading for an hour a day. He has his cooking timers, digital minutes and seconds, and his three reading chairs. He usually has multiple books with him and several different topics going. It has been a goal for many years that once he realizes what he doesn’t know, his goal is to go to bed a wiser man every day, wiser than when he woke up in the morning. This was the best discipline that he had instilled into his day to day life. Looking back at the tens of thousands of books he has read over the years, his comment is there are wonderful things hidden between the front and back covers of every book and he is amazed at the sheer volume of books. He just finished one book he always wanted to read called Walden by Henry David Thoreau that was a slow read but he got lots out of it. Bruce and Mike talked one year about him possibly rereading his library, which he said he has considered. He has what he calls his all-star library in front of his reading chair of his favorite books. Several years ago he heard someone say that you should reread your good books. If they worked the first time, they may be better the second time. So he made a list and methodically went through his best books, and he found himself underlining different things because he was at a different part of the trail in life. He has even gone back and read some of his books a third time and some he said may even be read annually.

One of most powerful tools in Tony’s house buyers tool bag is making friends. It makes negotiating an easier path because inherently people pick up that you’re safe. Whenever Tony does anything, if his heart is not in it, he is not going to be any good at it. The only reason he has succeeded at this business is because he was less about the numbers and more about solving the problem. Still today he is working in his area with the mayor’s office and trying to create solutions for things having to do with blighted neighborhoods and other similar things. Tony has been dealing with this problem for years while the office still thinks it’s a big problem to deal with. They don’t see the people behind the situations. If you had removed this element, then Tony does not believe he would have done as well in the business. He learned a lot of the trade from watching his mother and her negotiating almost everything. His mother would often clean and cook for the nuns in the convent and would often bring her children with her. She had the opportunity to meet Robert Kennedy while she was cleaning as a maid at the End over End and the Philips Academy. They put her back on the plane when she learned she had cancer so she could die in her own country of Cuba instead of the ten feet of snow in Massachusetts.

Mike’s best tool has been being able to communicate with people, having a conversation not necessarily face to face, but basic human interaction 101, being able to establish some repoire, and then following up with a written offer to purchase. He makes lots of offers and has always had the attitude that writing offers is like playing the lottery for free. If he can extract enough information out of a conversation to come to a conclusion what the seller was looking for and then put the offer in writing and get it in front of him. Mike loves humor when negotiating. This is the main thing he and some of his friends have in common. It is smart and also second nature to Mike now, but negotiating for him was learned. He has a yellow pad where he captures the path for a specific person and then goes back and visits it. The morning of the radio show Mike had gone into his office and had a couple letter response calls over the weekend. He called the person back, and after their initial back and forth, he told Mike about a property. Mike asked him what he would like to see happen and just let him run. When the guy paused, Mike asked him what his second choice was. And he told him exactly what it was.

Tags: 590 AM, bruce norris, Dave Deldado, Henry David Thoreau, Joe Karbo, Lazy Man's Way to Riches, Mike Cantu, Philips Academy, Princeton Graduates: Twenty Years Later, Robert Kennedy, the norris group, The Norris Group Real Estate Radio Show, Tony Alvarez, Walden
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201-TNG Radio – Alvarez, Cantu, & Solis 11-20-10

Friday, November 19th, 2010

Tony Alvarez

Veteran Investor

(Full Bio)

Mike Cantu

Veteran Investor

(Full Bio)

Rick Solis

Veteran Investor, Appraiser

(Full Bio)

This week Bruce is joined by Mike Cantu, Rick Solis and Tony Alvarez. Mike Cantu has been an investor in the Inland Empire for over 25 years. He has been a builder, rehabber and property manager. Rick Solis appraises all of The Norris Group’s loans, and he is also an investor. Tony Alvarez has been an appraiser, residential and commercial property buyer and author.

Rick meets with many of tenants in his current buying market. When you talk with tenants, and ask them what they do and don’t like about a property, it helps one understand what they are looking for. Rick will not buy any property without two bathrooms. A property without a garage is practically worthless. Small bedrooms can be deal killers as well.

For Rick’s typical 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom, 1,100 sq feet house, he typically rents for $1,000 per month. If he can squeeze an extra bedroom into the house, then he can raise rents by $100. Rick’s rent rates are $50 less than most landlords.

All of Rick’s houses are upgraded with granite counters and wood laminate floors. Those 2 items seem to attract a lot of quality tenants. Most of Rick’s desert properties do not have yards. Tony calls that “desert landscaping.”

Mike’s rental property criteria is very different from Rick’s. Mike is less concerned with house structure, and more concerned with lot location. Mike has many 2 bedroom, 1 bath houses, and some of them have served as his best rentals. Houses wear down, but dirt goes up in value. Mike is very concerned with buying houses near good school districts. People will overlook the size of their house if they can get a home in a good school district. Mike’s average rent for his 2 bedroom, 1 bath houses is $1,095. He does not lose many tenants.

Tony will not buy condos in his market. The condos in his market are too condensed, and the percentage of rentals to owner occupied properties is not good. Some time ago, Tony was able to buy 2 bedroom, 2 bath condos for $15,000. If prices go down to that level, then he will probably start buying condos again. Tony likes to buy 2 bedroom, 1 bath houses and 3 bedroom, 1 houses.

Tony buys a combination of properties. They range from lower class to upper class properties. He finds that mixing up his inventory allows him to receive a variety of benefits. The last time Tony began investing, 90% of his renters were Section 8. Now approximately 50% of his renters are Section 8.

Rick tries to avoid Section 8, because he loses a couple months of rent waiting for inspectors to come out. He has also found that Section 8 tenants are not quality tenants. Rick says he is not opposed to Section 8 tenants if they can quickly move into the property and pay rent.

Tony believes that Rick’s problems with Section 8 are due to the difference in his market. Rick’s Section 8 tenants were from San Bernardino County. Tony has found that LA County’s Section 8 is more efficient. Also, the extent to which you know the Section 8 workers makes a difference in how quickly they service you.

Mike has no Section 8 tenants. However, he is not opposed to renting to Section 8 tenants. In the past, when Mike had Section 8 tenants, he lost all of them. Almost all of them had a problem with breaking things and not fixing them. Mike will not keep tenants who will not pay for the items they destroy.

After Mike receives an application from a potential tenant, he will give a surprise visit to their house. He checks to see if they keep their properties in good shape. If he is not allowed to come into their current house, then he will reject the potential tenant.

Back in the 80s, Tony developed a good understanding of the rhetoric for how bankers and politicians communicate. You have to carefully analyze what they say to understand what they really mean. Tony believes that they want to release the inventory, but they have a control issue over how the inventory will be released. Unfortunately, bankers are not as motivated to release the inventory now, because they are receiving large sums of money from the government. Tony believes that much of the inventory will be released between now and 2012, because that is an election year. They will want to get the pain out of our memories before the next election. Americans do tend to have short term memories for economic pains, but Tony believes the damage done by this down turn was too deep.

There was a bill that was recently rejected. This bill would have squashed most of the foreclosure cases we are having right now. There probably were some foreclosures where the paper work wasn’t completely done, but if you went back through history and looked at the paper work for every foreclosure, you would probably find just as many foreclosure problems. The bottom line is that if you aren’t making your payments, then you should be foreclosed on.

Mike has noticed a difference in the kind of inventory being released during the second half of this year. They are letting go of strange, derelict inventory. Typically, when Mike looks at newly released inventory, 8 out of 10 will be worth bidding on. Recently, when Mike analyzed the new inventory for his market, only 5 of the 18 were worth bidding on.

Rick doesn’t pay much attention to what people are saying about what is coming to the market. There are too many different opinions for him to take many of them seriously. He would rather just focus on what trends are currently visible in the market.

Tony recently talked to an REO agent who was very worried by some recent news released by Fannie Mae. The news said that Fannie Mae was hiring new agents, but they had to hire a racially diverse group of agents. Also, the news said that the experienced agents would be required to train the new REO agents, or lose their job.

There is a difference between a real REO agent and an imposter. The imposters are bulk buying companies. Some of the imposter companies are named Atlantic and Pacific. If you do research on their listings, they are all owned by one holding company. These guys are buying bulk and then trying to sell at high prices. Also, many of them are buying non-performing notes, not houses. That is not a true REO agent, and the information you will get from them is not accurate.

If you are buying $150 million of notes, that inventory will not hit the market in the typical way. It won’t be an REO that will go to 20 different agents, it will just go to the one company.

As long as Mike is in real estate, he will be a student of it. He goes to 8 to 12 seminars every year. If you work hard on your job, you will get paid money, but if you work hard on yourself, you will earn a fortune. A lot of bubble riders who are still in trouble, and he wonders how much of their failure is due to their lack of education. Mike believes that his success is due to his education. He likes to have a variety of education. He doesn’t want to be limited in any aspect of his education. Mike’s favorite trainer was Jack Miller, who recently died. Bruce is in Mike’s top 4 favorite trainers alongside John Schaub and Peter Fortunato.

Tony does not feel he has taken much education. He has taken some of Mike’s seminars. He got involved in real estate because he listened to a late night infomercial. Tony’s career was all about learning through his mistakes until he met Bruce. Before Tony met Bruce, Tony was only buying REO properties. Bruce taught Tony to look into owner sellers, and how to time markets. Bruce told Tony to hold on to his properties when Tony was about to sell. When Bruce told Tony to sell, Bruce said, “Would you rather sell to a euphoric market or an uninterested market?” Tony earned $3 million from the advice Bruce gave him, so Bruce is the person he listens to the most.

Rick has been reading books and going to seminars since he was a teenager. One of the teachers he listened to when he was younger was Dave Deldado. In the last few years, Rick has stopped going to all other seminars other than Bruce’s. Bruce is in Rick’s market and he respects Bruce’s market timing. Before hearing Bruce’s seminars, Rick was only buying 1 or 2 properties per year, but now he tries to buy 1 or 2 every month.

Thank you Mike Cantu, Rick Solis and Tony Alvarez for being a part of our 200^th show.

Tags: agent, condo, Dave Deldado, education, fannie mae, foreclosed, foreclosure, foreclosures, inventory, jack miller, John Schaub, Mike Cantu, norris group, Peter Fortunato, properties, property, rental, rental market, renter, rents, reo, Rick Solis, Section 8, section eight, tenant, Tony Alvarez
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200-TNG Radio – Alvarez, Cantu, & Solis 11-13-10

Friday, November 12th, 2010

Tony Alvarez

Veteran Investor

(Full Bio)

Mike Cantu

Veteran Investor

(Full Bio)

Rick Solis

Veteran Investor, Appraiser

(Full Bio)

Bruce begins by asking Mike about what he learned from the 90s that helped in the most recent down turn. All things come full circle. A good market will eventually become a bad market. The down turn took longer this time, but it hit much harder. Sales dropped off the cliff, but fortunately, Mike began preparing for the down turn in 2004. Tony agrees with Mike.

During the evening of Obama’s election, a newsletter was put out, which was titled “Obama Administration Sings New Tune on Foreclosures”. The article is laughable. The media went from saying “no foreclosures” to “foreclosures are the answer to this problem”.

Rick began investing in 1989. He was not very active in the 90s. The main thing he learned from the 90s was that you can miss many opportunities when you ignore the market. A lot of people are afraid of the market right now, but Rick won’t let that fear control his investing plans.

Bruce believes that fear certainly is affecting the market now. People are afraid to buy properties despite the fact that prices have dropped 50% and interest rates are historically low. Its hard to believe that not buying could be perceived as a rational decision. Rick Solis has never seen a better time to buy houses since he began investing. Bruce definitely believes that it is the best time to buy and hold.

Tony just bought a completely rehabbed duplex. In 2007, it sold for $175,000, but he bought it for $35,000. The saddest part is that the duplex sold with multiple offers. The reason why so many people are afraid of buying is because they are paying too much attention to the media’s opinion.

Mike knows many investors, but only a small number of them are still investing. The number one problem that caused them to fall out of investing is their overly expensive life style. A lot of people learned how to make money in real estate, but not many people learned how to keep it. The investor pool has shrunken significantly. Many people would like to invest in real estate right now, but they made bad decisions at the top of the market, which handicapped them from buying. Mike agreed with Rick and Tony when they said that now is the time to buy.

Mike is a fairly frugal person. Bruce laughed when he saw Mike’s 1998 Toyota truck. It has 441,000 miles, but it runs like a champ. When a dog gets old, you don’t get rid of it, you just take better care of it. Mike has a hard time spending money on a vehicle when you can get a rental house for the cost of a new car. Every time Mike sets money aside for a new truck he ends up spending it to buy a new house, and he realizes that his truck is just fine.

Mike’s daughter recently began investing in real estate. Mike helped her develop a 5 year plan for buying cash flow houses in good neighborhoods. Their goal is to help her get $3,500 of cash flow per month, and they are half way there.

If Tony could have done anything differently throughout his career, he would have focused harder on one segment of the market place. He wishes he had been more aware of the value of his time. Tony spent a lot of time driving to deals that didn’t have much potential.

Tony prefers to buy and sell, but he currently owns 40 rentals. Before the peak, he had 100 homes. He wanted to get out before the peak, but Bruce encouraged him to not sell for another 3 years. Bruce’s advice helped Tony gain an extra $3 million in profit. Tony is now buying some of the same houses that he sold near the peak. In the past, Tony would buy almost any property he could. Some of the properties he bought and sold were in such a terrible condition that they have now been destroyed. He doesn’t buy properties that are that terrible any more, but he is still willing to buy wood structure homes and other properties that people tend to stray away from.

If Rick could have done anything differently in his career, he would have sold all his properties by 2006. Rick has accumulated quite a few properties, and he is glad to have them, but he is not looking forward to managing them.

Mike chose not to sell his properties despite the fact that values were sinking, and he does not regret that decision at all. Mike got into real estate for the cash flow, so that all his expenses would be taken care of. He knows people who are struggling right now and have to make a deal every month to keep food on the table. The value of his rental properties is immaterial to him. He has not had to reduce rents by any more than $50, and he has had no difficulty in keeping them occupied.

Mike was the person who introduced Tony to the concept of exchanged junky homes for quality rental homes. Exchanging for quality rental properties allows you to keep rentals in competitive areas, and it helps reduce the amount of time spent on property management.

Bruce has learned a lot from observing the business models of other people. When Mike told Bruce that he wanted to obtain 10 rental properties, Bruce decided to try and do the same. Having free and clear properties gives you sanity when making investment decisions. If you are playing catch up on equity, or if you are relying on today’s deals to pay tomorrow’s meals, you tend to make riskier decisions. Bruce and Mike don’t have to make potentially risky decisions because they both have enough cash flow to get by.

One of the big differences that Tony has noticed between 2010 and 2009 is that many investors have left his market. Also, approximately 80% of his purchases went from being new listings from agent calls to pending deals. Fifty percent of the deals occurring in Tony’s area fall out of escrow 1 to 3 times. This has caused Tony to become more cautious when buying. He has dropped his rents by 20% in the last 12 months. He has also lost some of his tenants.

Rick noticed that when the stimulus program was going on, entry level properties experienced up to a 10% increase in value. Moreno Valley and Corona had a big increase in activity. That 10% increase has now disappeared. Rick will not buy a house right now unless the deal can work as a rental. Many investors have recently bought homes they thought would easily resell, and they are now stuck with them. Bruce will not buy a home on leased land.

From the beginning of 2009 to the end, we went from a period of market uncertainty to confidence. In 2008, Mike decided not to do a retail deals unless he could keep those houses as rentals. Mike does not use any July comps any more; comps must be within the months of August, September and October. There is a 5 to 20% difference between homes being sold now and homes sold in July.

Mike believes there are still a lot of people who will not accept the fact that their home values have significantly decreased. A lot of the private market is still in denial.

Rick invests primarily in Rialto, Hesperia and Victorville. Rick and his business partner work with rehab properties. He rents his properties slightly below market value and they are in good shape, so he has a lot of demand. Many times he has a security deposit and a tenant lined up before he closes escrow. He does not have any trouble with rents dropping. His typical house is a 3 bedroom, 2 bath. He loves it when he can squeeze a 4^th bedroom into the house by cutting the living room in half. He usually rents the 3 bedroom houses for $1,000, and the 4 bedroom houses for $1,100.

Tags: business model, buy and hold, California, comps, down turn, escrow, foreclosure, foreclosures, hard money, investing, investor, Mike Cantu, norris group, properties, rent, rental, reo, Rick Solis, short sales, Tony Alvarez, trust deed investing
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154-TNG Radio – Cantu and Alvarez 12-26-09

Wednesday, December 23rd, 2009

Mike Cantu

Investor

(Full Bio)

Tony Alvarez

Investor

(Full Bio)

This week Bruce is joined by Mike Cantu and Tony Alvarez. Both of them are very successful California real estate investors.

At the end of 2006, Mike made a list of people that he thought would be out of business in a short period of time. Later he discovered that his predictions were true. Bruce asks what was wrong with their business plan that caused them to fail. Mike said that these people did not know how to adapt to market change. They had unsustainable lifestyles. They were spending between $10,000 to $20,000 dollars per month, and that lifestyle ultimately brought them down during the rough times. Many had negative cash flow on their investments, they were too optimistic, and they were speculating too much. Some people have a hard time understanding the difference between speculators and investors. Mike labels himself an investor in the rental market, and he labels himself a real estate entrepreneur in the buy/sell business. In the late 1980s, people were speculating how high prices would go, and they thought prices were going to keep going up, and many of them were hurt badly. Mike has a much more conservative business plan than those people.

When Bruce and Tony met in 2003, he was considering leaving the real estate market. Bruce made a list of similarities and differences between Tony and Mike. Tony chose to unload his properties, but Mike did not, and both of them are very happy with their outcomes. Tony had a variety of properties, and he felt that his assets would be more difficult to manage. He was also facing high taxes, so he chose to 1031 exchange into commercial property. He had a good friend who was involved in the building of shopping centers, so he had the right relationships to make good commercial deals.

When Mike saw properties go up in 2006, he chose to hold onto his properties, and he is still proud of his decision. Mike wanted to have enough rental income to live life on his terms. After he made his big mistake, he just wanted to have one more chance to achieve his goal of freedom, and he didn’t want to take the risk of losing it. He realized that he had everything he had hoped to obtain, so he felt no need to trade his properties for more money. He also realized that if he decided to sell his properties then he would eventually choose to reinvest that money back into real estate. He already had all the real estate he needed, so he just decided to keep it. However, he has made upgrades on the properties that he owns. He traded his lower quality houses for good houses in good neighborhoods. These houses take care of him, and now he feels that the rest of his life is an open book because those homes take care of all his expenses.

Bruce has watched people made desperate decisions over the last few years. He met one man who had $16 million worth in real estate, $12 million of debt, and $30 thousand dollars of negative cash flow. Bruce knew that this man had $4 million in equity, but he was very glad that he was not in the same position. That man lost a lot of what he had. Decisions made in desperation don’t work out very well. The philosophy of buying, holding and paying off assets saves you from making desperate decisions.

Bruce asks Tony what he would do if he had lost everything and he had to restart from scratch. Tony did a little experiment in which he asked himself, “What would I do if I was starting from nothing in San Diego.” It took him 2 days to analyze everything in the MLS, and use the same concepts he teaches in his books. He called agents and did not tell him that he was an investor. The agents quickly decided to work with him.

Tony received a negative response from an investor who had attended his classes. This investor told Tony that he had been working in San Diego, because there was no opportunity there. He told Tony that he could not get a deal. Not long after that, Tony got an email from two men in their twenties. They had done 8 deals within the last 12 months and gained about $200,000. Tony discovered that they only $1,000 dollars to start out with.

Tony tells Bruce that if he had to start over, he would take whatever resources he had and go back to the Antelope Valley. He would use his knowledge about real estate to do exactly what he had done before. He would look for inventory that would provide him with positive cash flow.

Bruce noted that both Mike and Tony have a sense of humor. Bruce thinks that Mike’s humor has been a big part of his success. Mike has zero expectations from his close friends, but he wants to have a good laugh every day. He does not want to take life too seriously. Bruce’s business involves taking peoples’ expectations down from the sky, and bringing it to earth. Bruce and Tony both enjoy a show call “The Pawn Shop.” Bruce noticed that there are three negotiating types displayed in the three characters. There is one character with a good sense of humor, and he easily gets people to reduce their prices by making sellers laugh.

If Mike was starting from scratch, he would hunt for a partner with money and credit. He would present a detailed plan to this partner, and continue learning about the investment that he wants to get involved in. He would do his best to become an asset to his partner rather than a liability.

Tony made a partner out of a hard money lender. He was just coming out of bankruptcy, but he was able to show the lender what he had going for him. He showed the lender his knowledge and ability to find deals. He had a mindset that he was going to walk out of the lender’s office with money.

Bruce asks Mike who his important mentors have been, because he has spent a lot of time getting an education. Mike feels fortunate that his first mentor was Mick Blackwell. He was not an easy man to do business with, or getting along with, but he pushed Mike very hard to do his best. Mick’s usual response to anything Mike did for him was, “Is that the best you can do?” This made Mike want to do his best to impress Mick. Mick also lived very conservatively. His wife has a lot of nice things, but Mick could be satisfied with a trailer in his backyard.

Tony considers his first two mentors to be his mom and dad. His dad encouraged Tony to integrate into American society. His dad taught him to be persistent and to do hard work. His mother taught him how to negotiate and build relationships. They did not have money to go to Catholic school, but Tony’s mother negotiated the school leader to let them in for free. Tony’s first business mentor was Victor Ayela. Victor told Tony that appraisers were making a fortune, and that he would be crazy not to learn about that business. Tony learned negotiating skills from a liquor buyer named Al Rudolph. Tony learned a lot about business integrity from a man named Joe Germaine. Many of his mentors were not in real estate. Most of the people that Tony enjoys doing business with are people who are true to their word, and they look for solutions to problems rather than let themselves be absorbed by problems.

Bruce believes that Tony, Mike and himself are going to be some of the main trainers for the next generation, and he takes that very seriously, because he was given the opportunity to learn from people like Jack Miller. Bruce remembers that he is the example for the next generation. Mike has always felt that he has an obligation to give back because of the help he received from other people. Mike wants to leave the better place than the way he entered it. He feels that it is very rewarding to help other people, and he enjoys the notes he gets in the mail about the way he has affected other peoples’ lives.

It was not easy for Mike to transition into his role as a teacher. The first time he was going to give a public speech, he threw up from his jitters and he considered bolting, but he felt very good after he gave his speech.

Thank you Mike and Tony for taking the time to do the interview. Happy holidays for those reading. Look forward to more interviews in 2010!

Tags: bruce norris, building, California, flipping, foreclosure, hard money, investor, Mike Cantu, podcast, Radio, real estate, short sale, the norris group, Tony Alvarez, trust deed investing, wealth
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153-TNG Radio – Cantu and Alvarez 12-19-09

Friday, December 18th, 2009

Mike Cantu

Investor

(Full Bio)

Tony Alvarez

Investor

(Full Bio)

This week Bruce is joined by real estate investors Mike Cantu and Tony Alvarez.

Tony started working in the real estate industry in 1981. He became an appraiser, and then started buying houses in Burbank. He eventually went on to invest in apartments and other types of real estate. Tony believes that what really gave him an edge in the business was his training as an appraiser. If you look at the front part of an appraisal form, it gives you all the information you need to focus your attention on.

Mike Cantu became attracted to the real estate business after watching a late night infomercial. The infomercial was about a surfer who claimed that he went from being a 20-year-old loser to a millionaire in a year. Mike Cantu believed the infomercial and decided to pursue real estate as a career. That night he took some notes and he created a list of goals. He and his friend Chuck went to a free promotional seminar. After going to the seminar, he revised those goals substantially upwards. His first goal was very modest; it was to pay the 40 dollar balance on his retread tires at J&J Tires.

People being trained by Bruce are viewing his finished project and it is very intimidating, because they cannot even imagine owning one of his properties. Bruce asks Mike how important it is to escape reality and set goals for future desires. Mike believes that goal-setting is the most important part of investment. Without a plan and goals you will wander aimlessly. Mike is a very goal oriented person. He has a stack of goal labeled cards which he reviews daily. Mike described a Harvard study in which a graduating class was interviewed. They tracked down that graduating class 20 years later, and they found that 3 percent of the graduates had set long term goals, and that 3 percent had a combined net worth that was greater than the other 97 percent.

Bruce asks Tony when he began to set goals for becoming wealthy, and actually believed he could do it. Tony began to set goals after his first bad experience in the 80s. His initial goal, after coming out of bankruptcy in 1993, was to get to 1 million dollars and 10,000 dollars a month in income. That was a big deal for him because he did not even have a car at that time, and he was working at Shakeys. His income eventually reached 55,000 dollars a month. He made all that money by working with REO agents.

Freedom is what defines wealth for Mike. Wealth gives him the freedom to do what he wants and live life on his terms. Mike obtained his first level of freedom in 2000. He realized then that he had all the things he needed to pay of some of his debts. Mike once thought he was invincible and that he could avoid the mistakes that many other people made, and he was wrong. He often found himself taking three steps forward and two steps back, but he does not regret the mistakes he made, because he learned from them.

Tony was born in Cuba and his family immigrated to the New England area. He grew up very differently than the other people in his area, and the struggles he faced helped him to develop certain personality traits which he believes greatly helped him in his business. Tony never felt that he was poor even though he was not able to buy some of the things that other people had. Tony describes the wealth he has as his piece of mind. He does not have to get up and go to a job. He is not being forced to work for someone else every day without being able to control his destiny.

Bruce explains that feeling of control of his destiny and his family’s destiny. It does not feel good knowing that you do not have control of your family’s destiny, and to know that you cannot let them experience all the things you wanted them to. Tony warns that investors must be careful when they start feeling like they are free and clear. Mike tells everyone that there is always a way to screw up your plans. He has tried to dumb-proof his plans, which has lead him to investing in well located single-family houses with good schools and no debt on it.

Mike agrees with Tony’s definition of wealth. Mike believes there are three life currencies, which he calls money, time, and serenity. You can have the first two, but if you don’t have the third then the money and time is not very valuable. Once Mike gained his serenity, he realized that it was something he never wanted to let go of, and he works every day to maintain it.

In 1985 to 1989, people gained a great amount of equity. Bruce asks Mike how well they were doing during that time. In the 80s, Mike was still learning to invest. He started his business in 1982. When the real estate market picked up, he started building houses and developing them. In 1987, he developed plans to become a big-time real estate developer. At that time, he did not understand that real estate has different cycles, and eventually he lost a lot of what he had gained.

Tony did very well during this same time period. He started as an appraiser because he wanted to invest. He learned a lot from banks, because he was able to look through all their files. He studied how banks qualified people, and he studied their top clients. He took that knowledge into his investing business. He also gained a lot of money by appraising for other investors. By the end of this cycle, he felt like quitting both sides of the business, because his work was all about the money and he was worn out. When he gained a large sum of money, he allowed someone else to handle his money for him, and he lost it all. When he went bankrupt, he had to walk home from the L.A. courthouse to Burbank. This gave him a lot of time to think about what he would not do the next time around.

After Mike’s bad run in building, he owned a lot of land, unfinished houses, a big subdivision, and a couple of unfinished condo projects. He learned from that experience that no matter how well you do, you can lose everything. Unfortunately, at that time he did not realize that you could also go negative, and dig a hole that takes time to get out of.

Not everyone chooses to dig themselves out of those sorts of problem. Some choose to walk away from their debts. Bruce has had people brag to him about how they own a rental that they haven’t made a payment on for 15 months. Mike considered the possibility of a corporate bankruptcy, but his partner encouraged him to pay off his debts. Bankruptcy decisions can hurt a lot of people other than the one declaring bankruptcy. It took Mike two years to take care of his debts, but everyone he was working with gained from his work, and he feels good about the decision he made.

It is very important to choose who you do business with. Mike suggests that you approach your search for a partner with the same seriousness that you would approach your search for a spouse. Mike has been approached for many partnership deals, but he accepts very few of them. He always asks his potential partners about how they are doing financially, because you do not want to let someone else’s bad decisions affect you.

The main less Tony learned from the down market in the early 90s was that he did not have to go into bankruptcy. Unfortunately, he did not realize this until later. Tony was given bankruptcy advice from an attorney, and he encouraged Tony to do it because he gained a fee from that decision. Tony warns that if you are chasing after deals out of fear for something, then you will eventually lose whatever you are making. When Toney came out of bankruptcy he learned to set goals. He was not so concerned with just making money, but with gaining his piece of mind. After he experienced bankruptcy, he came out with a better sense of who he was and what the ultimate purpose of his real estate business was.

Mike’s primary lesson from his downturn was that the bad times will not last forever. Everything will pass in time. He also learned the power of goals. He gained the determination to clean up the mess he had made. He also realized how important it is to figure out what you are really pursuing in life. Mike views real estate as a means to an end.

Bruce’s real estate experience has lead him to his passion, which is teaching. He enjoys the experience of calculating statistics that can be used to help other people. This discussion will continue next week. Mike and Tony will be back next week.

112-TNG Radio – Tony Alvarez 3-7-09

Friday, March 6th, 2009

Tony Alvarez

Expert real estate investor, property manager, and mentor

(Full Bio)

Bruce Norris is joined by expert real estate investor and mentor, Tony Alvarez.

Tony got started in 1980 watching the infomercials on the television. He bought all the courses. It quickly led him to appraising. All the courses he had bought didn’t get him to the numbers he needed. The appraisals license really helped him take off. Tony was born in Cuba and his first exposure to real estate at a young age was very positive.

In the 1980s the interest rate was high. Tony started buying little single family home sin Burbank. He expanded in “The Flats” and kept his job as an appraiser. He started working with two gentlemen from New Zealand. These guys opened his eyes to a new world of investing. Tony learned quickly that his preconceived notion on real estate investing had held him back from what was really possible in the business.

Tony goes into detail about what many new investors say and how they fear getting in the market. Tony discusses the specific questions he asks new investors because he finds they typically make the same mistakes and they just don’t know where to start. They haven’t really thought about the details of where they want to invest and say that they just want a deal.

Bruce talks about how many investors are trying to either make up for lost time and/or trying to make up for losses which is not good. Hearing the desperation makes him nervous as many of these investors get led astray. Tony feels the same way. He himself struggled with this issue early in his career.

Tony talks a little about his “Third Element” concept. He goes into fear and how it really controls people and what they do and don’t do. He talks about fear and how it really gets in the way of real accomplishment. More people need to analyze how they make decisions and stop operating under fear.

Tony talks about people making mistakes because they are unwilling to learn from people already in the business and do not invest in education. He talks about his philosophy on education which is very much like Mike Cantu. Tony went to Mike Cantu’s training although he’s been a land lord for years. All it takes is one simple idea that can revolutionize how you do business. Tony talks about how much money he would have saved if he had been more careful with education in the beginning.

Bruce and Tony discuss how this business has changed his life and how he’s set up his properties to pay for his base lifestyle. It’s afforded him to do some interesting things.

It was a little long of an introduction but more is coming next week.

Tony Alvarez has been a successful Real Estate Investor and Certified General Appraiser in the Southern California area since 1981. Tony has bought, sold and rented hundreds of properties from vacant land to condos, single family residences, and apartments. More recently he is investing in commercial developments in Arizona, Nevada, and Southern California.

As an appraiser Tony worked as a staff appraiser for Great Western and Glendale Federal Bank and is approved by hundreds of Lenders, Insurances Companies as well as Government Agencies.

He has worked for Fanny Mae, Freddie Mac, FHA and the FDIC.

He has an in depth knowledge of the inner workings of Lenders and their REO (foreclosure) departments. Tony’s knowledge of real estate, appraisal, finance, and investing is vast and varied. He brings a unique perspective to the real estate investment community.

Tags: appraising, bruce norris, interest rate, investor, Mike Cantu, property, real estate, Tony Alvarez
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109-TNG Radio – Mike Cantu 2-14-09

Friday, February 13th, 2009

Mike Cantu

Expert California Investor

(Full Bio)

Bruce Norris is joined once again this week by California investor and property manager expert, Mike Cantu.

Bruce asks about how Mike feels about the use of leverage in this market. Mike says leverage when buying at the right price is fine. Finding the long term leverage is the issue. It’s a challenge because banks want fully qualified and documented loans and stated income is out for investors. Bruce thinks this will change because they’ll have no choice but to open up to investors. It getting over the issue of investors being considered the “speculator” and everyone realizes we’re part of the solution.

Bruce asks Mike what his long term rental would look like. Mike goes into details exactly what he looks for in long term holds including structure and neighborhood. Mike and Bruce also talks about paying a little more for property that is premium. Both talk about neighborhoods and why he likes certain types.

Mike goes into a little more detail about renters and what he looks for when considering renting to a consumer. Mike goes over his job description concept. It’s truly unusual for the renters to hear what Mike has as expectations. Mike says a few people get offended by his direct questions but he ends up with some of the lowest turnover in the business.

If he and the renter make it to signing the rental agreement, he hopes that the renter forgets what he looks like because he never has to hear from them and visa versa. He rarely sees many of his tenants because of correct tenant selection.

Mike talks about liking to rent to blue collar workers. He loves tenants that fix things along the way and then sends him a receipt. Better to solve problems as they come up instead of letting them turn into big problems.

Bruce talks about questions Mike asks that are legal on the first meeting. He says humor and personality are important. Mike talks about things you can’t talk about as outlined in the Fair Housing Guidelines. You can’t not rent to people because of moral issues so be careful and understand what you’re getting into.

Bruce asks what the biggest surprise was that a renter ever gave Mike. Mike talks about a few good surprises and some bad experiences.

Bruce asks Mike about Section 8. Mike says he has mixed feelings about Section 8. Mike likes to be a little more independent. He has seen good and bad. The biggest issue comes with inspections. In his experience, houses don’t break themselves. People break houses and inspectors expect you to fix what renters break.

Bruce asks about rents and if he expects them to go down. Mike has seen his rental market get stronger as people move back to his area that had once gone to the high desert but have now foreclosed. He had a few vacancies but once they were fixed they were rented within 30 days. He says he’s even done a round of rent raises this year and no one has moved.

The biggest mistakes are buying the wrong house and overestimating rent. You can’t be way over on rent. Investors have to do their homework on the tenant and accepting a person check for deposit and first months rent is a huge mistake.

Bruce asks about who handles evictions. He’s been very unhappy with services and luckily he doesn’t have very many. He’s seriously thinking about taking them on himself again.

Mike does not use a property manager and he urges people to learn what it is that an investor is about to pay somebody else to do.

Mike talks to Bruce about the time it takes from an REO purchase to rehab to rental. Mike would like people to start doing houses one at a time and not try too many at once.

Mike is teaching his “Rental Properties and Management” seminar live for the first time February 21st in Riverside. This course is being presented by The Norris Group. Visit thenorrisgroup.com for more information. Next week, Ward Hanigan!

Mike Cantu is undoubtedly one of Southern California’s best real estate investors and a long-time friend of The Norris Group.

Mike Cantu has been a full time real estate investor for over 25 years. This is round three of a down market for Mike. He runs a buy/sell operation, wholesales, and manages a rental property portfolio.

Tags: blue collar, bruce norris, Fair Housing Guidelines, investor, Mike Cantu, property, rehab, rent, reo, Section 8, speculator, tenent, vacancy
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108-TNG Radio – Mike Cantu 2-7-09

Friday, February 6th, 2009

Mike Cantu

Expert California Investor

(Full Bio)

Bruce Norris is joined this week by expert investor, Mike Cantu.

Bruce starts by asking Mike what he did before real estate. Mike talks about his background in professional skate boarding. Mike moved from being a skate boarder to a very young start in real estate. Bruce says in the 1980s the interest rates were not that great so was curious why Mike liked real estate. Mike Cantu talks about an info commercial that changed his life and how he started.

Bruce asks Mike about his education and why he is such a supporter of education since he’s already so successful in the business.

Mike talks about his long-term plan. He’s really built as a buy and hold guy. Mike talks about his overall strategies and his mentors.

Bruce asks about the difference between a “B” and “C” neighborhoods and how Mike chooses which properties he’s interested in holding. Bruce and Mike talks about how important being able to purchase below market was to his business.

Bruce asks Mike if he thinks 2009 will be the best buy and hold opportunity we’ve ever seen. Mike thinks that this year will be a great year. Prices for houses are very low in some areas and rents are still relatively high.

Bruce asks Mike where he’s buying his properties and how long it’s taken for some of the properties he’s buying to close. They discuss the extraordinary price declines. Mike says he’s still contacting people directly but not as much. He says 2/3 of sellers are still in denial of what’s happened in the market.

Mike and Bruce discuss about carrying paper to have deals make sense. Mike says he did that he did that in the 80s and 90s but not as much recently.

Bruce asks Mike if he had to do something over in 2006 what would it be. Mike says take a two year vacation! It was a lot of work for sometimes little results.

Bruce and Mike talk about different strategies and how it changes the outlook on what real estate is going to be for different investors. Mike has a large portfolio of rentals and he knew prices were going to fall. Mike has a different philosophy. He wasn’t too interested in leveraging them all to the hilt. Mike says he saw leveraging work for some and others it was their downfall.

Mike talks about each of his houses and having a job description for each one. Mike doesn’t plan to touch any of these. Sometimes people feel it’s sometimes unsophisticated but “unlocking equity” has its own risks and Mike says he’s very clear on what his portfolio does. He heard horrible stories of people’s lifetime of work being wiped out by being too risky.

Mike discusses his two piles of houses and his goal for each pile. Bruce asks how he thinks people can get back on their feet if they have lost everything. He says go back to the basics.

Bruce asks about his calmness level over the past few years as the market has tanked. Mike says he planned for this and knew it was coming. He went through it before and was determined not to make the same mistakes. Bruce said he was glad to go through the 90s. Going through the pain makes you learn some important lessons. Going through the 90s for both Mike and Bruce gave them a very different outlook and respect for down markets and they’ve done things very different this year.

Mike is teaching his Rental and Property Management Seminar for the first time in conjunction with The Norris Group coming up February 21st. More information available at thenorrisgroup.com.

Mike Cantu is undoubtedly one of Southern California’s best real estate investors and a long-time friend of The Norris Group.

Tags: bruce norris, downturn, interest, investor, management, Mike Cantu, property, real estate
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